Chinese M14 origin theories

McCDan

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We all know that the adopted scripture as to the origins of the Chinese made M14 states that it came about from recovered USGI examples taken back to China and reverse engineered to supply a communist rebellion in the Phillipines. People that know a lot more than I do about M14's are pretty adamant that this is the case. I can't offer an alternate theory but some things don't make sense. Before you roll your eyes and say 'here we go again', hear me out.

After getting a set of M14 drawings to check the specs on my Norc receiver I came to the realization that reverse engineering these would have been a lot of work. Not impossible, but definitely not economical for the Chinese in the 1960's. I am a machinist and have been for 15 years. I have had to reverse engineer parts for customers in the past. Parts that were significantly less complex than an M14 receiver. If I was an Chinese engineer tasked with the job, I would be asking "why don't we copy the easier-to-manufacture M16a1 or how about we just arm the rebellion with with the SKS or AK47 variants that we are already producing??" The M14 receiver is not easy to machine and not easy to measure without knowing the datums provided by the drawing. Having to guess at datums and tolerances would be extremely frustrating. The new Springfield Armory couldn't even get the dimensions right WITH the drawings. The fact that the Chinese would be able to replicate something that is 97% compatible with the USGI counterpart and do it in secret is amazing. And with only the tools available to them in the 1960's. I've worked with machinists who left China and they told me about how they used spring comparators for almost everything. Micrometers were a western luxury. And that was in the 80's. Look at the compatibility between metric, imperial and ishapore FAL's. And the countries manufacturing those were actually on speaking terms.

Then you have to ask why they would bother with certain expensive to manufacture aspects of the M14. For example, the rear sight. Communists don't give two turtle s**ts about sights. You get a leaf, and if you care about windage, you find a hammer and a punch. The rear sight assembly on an M14 is as difficult to machine, if not more-so, than an entire bolt and bolt carrier on an SKS. For another example, the rear buttplate. Why would they bother with the heavy, useless, expensive folding buttplate when they could just stamp out a single piece steel butt plate and be done with it. How about the bayonet lug on the flash hider? As far as I know the Chinese never even made bayonets for the M14 so why would they incorporate yet another unnecessary feature? How about the contoured heel that could have been left square? Why would they replicate every detail of the USGI cleaning kit and the sling? Any extra manufacturing step adds to the final cost.

As I said, I don't have any alternate theories. While it may well be accurate, I just think the reverse engineering theory has a few holes. Considering the where it was destined to go and the purpose behind it, why didn't they pick something cheaper?
 
From the research I have done on the M14 platform, what the OP states is pretty much the case.

With-out typing for the next 2 months, here's what I have gleaned from research over the last 5 yrs or so......

In a nutshell;

China did in fact reverse engineer the M14 rifle. The US disrupted a shipment of the rifles (2500 rifles iirc) most were "Winchester" heel stamped, with the same serial #. They were obvious forgeries, showed a passing resemblance to a M-14, many did not work for more than a round or 10. Iirc less than 10% were able to digest a full magazine of ammo.

In the late '80s a couple of enterprising importers started bringing in semi-auto copies into the US. There were quite a few problems with the early examples that were brought over. So many so that one of the importers cancelled his future orders. The other importer tried to work with the Chinese manufacturer to make a better "copy".

It was at that time that (iirc SEI provided the drawings) that the Chinese were givin drawings and specs of the M14, and quite a few examples were created tested ad nasusium. Once the final product was deemed "acceptable", orders were placed for a "boat load" of the rifles. Before the orders were filled, the US banned import of guns from China. (This why we are able to buy these rifles in such quantity here in Canada and other firearm friendly places)

Many in the US see the mid '90s as the golden age of the M14 pattern rifle. Chinese receivers generally sell for much more than receivers from LRB, Rock-ola or SAI. The last couple that hit gun broker sold for $1500+, when considering that the LRB retails for $750 in the US, and the LRB is VERY well regarded in the US, that speaks volumes.

A very similar set of circumstances revolves around the 1911 platform.

OP you are correct. It is extremely difficult to reverse engineer a complex machine like a select-fire firearm. But the example you have in your hands, I would almost guarantee, was not.

John
 
There is exhaustive reporting on this topic by Lee Emmerson who posts as Different. I have a copy of his electronic book and the three comments about reverse engineered copies, manufactured for the rebels in the Philippines, and US importers sharing the drawings are all there. I don't recall the quality comment about not firing after 10 rounds, but I may have seen an earlier edition. It is not surprising. For a while Lee was also collecting serial number and marking drawings.

For what its worth, I have seen Chinese M305 parts which had go-fast features on one part, but not on the receivers. I also smiled to see a highly polished deeply blued receiver. Another interesting variant had a giant Norinco logo engraved on the left sidewall and no scope base. Then the more common examples of wood or plastic stocks, and markings on the left side or on the heel.
 
Didn't chiner buy the machines and spare parts off of Taiwan who bought it off the states

I don't know why people keep giving this nugget oxygen to stay alive. Peoples Republic of China (PRC) view Taiwan ie Republic of China (ROC) as a misdirected rascal province that has resisted all encouragements to return to the loving arms of the motherland since 1949. Taiwan on the other hand has grave concern about the Communists' intentions and objectives. So much so that their military is almost exclusively focused on defeating invading mainland Chinese. One has an active NATO and American style military-industrial complex. The other has a quantity over quality economy. Why would Taiwan want to share defence intellectual properties with its enemy?
 
Thanks for the insight. All I had been able to find were short blurbs about a "Source 12" that didn't really explain anything. If the receivers were stamped 'Winchester' I would assume the reasons behind the whole thing were political to try to hide the true source of who was arming the rebellion. I did see something about ammunition being British marked as well even though it was Chinese manufactured. It makes a lot more sense to know that the norinco's and polytech's currently in Canada were made to a USGI drawing and not reverse engineered after all.
 
What constitutes reverse engineering ? :confused: Get a sample, take some measurements, proper tooling and you're in business. Soviets copied the B 29. Saw an article once, Chinese dual purpose factory, bicycles and AKs, very primitive by our standards actually.

Grizz
 
Ya just did the qoogle thing and saw they were made way back in "The Day" But not very many. Thanks for educating me now where is all the .30 carbine ammo? I know reload. Sorry for the thread drift guys
 
When Allen Lever first started importing Chinese m14 s, he had original sales samples. They were the same as
the usgi m14 rifles that we have now. They had the selector locks and all the selector parts. The stocks were
like the heavy target stocks. These guns are still here somewhere.
 
I don't know why people keep giving this nugget oxygen to stay alive. Peoples Republic of China (PRC) view Taiwan ie Republic of China (ROC) as a misdirected rascal province that has resisted all encouragements to return to the loving arms of the motherland since 1949. Taiwan on the other hand has grave concern about the Communists' intentions and objectives. So much so that their military is almost exclusively focused on defeating invading mainland Chinese. One has an active NATO and American style military-industrial complex. The other has a quantity over quality economy. Why would Taiwan want to share defence intellectual properties with its enemy?

Never really cared about the history, had better things to do. Just posted what I had heard.

:)
 
They did a good job on the M305 receiver. Better than any other you can find today. This rifle is still being used in Chinese research labs. The word I heard was that it was reverse-engineered but the SVDs were made available at the time so the m305 failed to achieve any military uptake.
So nowadays you see a mixed use of SVDs and T88s as semi auto marksman rifle in the PLA. All in all they never shared any designs with taiwan and vise versa.
 
If China got a set of REAL M14 engineering drawing, THEY STOLED THEM! Anyone giving or selling a set to the Chinese can and would be prosecuted under United States law (violation of ITAR). Second, the Chinese have a long history of "copying" firearms. Anyone remember the Chinese made "Broomhandles"? As for making firearms, it is amazing what be done with simple machines and hand tools. Check out firearms making in the Pakistan's tribal territory. Some are real POS but other are quite good.
 
Considering that no unusual rumblings have been reported from the tomb of Chiang-Kai-shek, I would say that the Taiwan story can be easily discounted as the least probable explanation.
 
The Chicoms originally got their weapons factories set up via Sino-Soviet cooperation, so we can rule out the M14 ever coming from that route. I don't see any other way, other than reverse engineering, that they starting making the M14. The Chinese at that time had capable machinists that were trained from Soviet cooperation, but not sure where they would get the engineering prawess from, at that time, to reverse engineer an M14. A handshake deal between China and the US to "send over" their TDP and milling jigs would only have come through in the late 70's and 80's when the U.S., through Bush Sr and Kissinger, made roads into China and eventually opened them up to capitalism.

I think it'll continue remaining a mystery for some time, but the most credible path, and the one with least resistance is the reverse engineer method. The Chinese are masters at copying. They had a void in their long range rifle choice which the Soviet Union couldn't assist them at the time, so they probably went to copying the M14.
 
It may be amazing what can be done with simple tools, but there's no way the M305 receivers we own today were machined without a USGI drawing (or s/a revision of such). Period. They may well be 'masters' at copying, but Chinese capability to copy an iPhone today does not run parallel with their cability to copy something as complicated as the M14 50 years ago.

I'm going to go with John's (m14medic) explanation. Reverse engineered examples being barely functional and made for political purposes while our M305's were made to actual drawings given to the Chinese by SEI. No real evolutionary link between the two.
 
It may be amazing what can be done with simple tools, but there's no way the M305 receivers we own today were machined without a USGI drawing (or s/a revision of such). Period. They may well be 'masters' at copying, but Chinese capability to copy an iPhone today does not run parallel with their cability to copy something as complicated as the M14 50 years ago.

I'm going to go with John's (m14medic) explanation. Reverse engineered examples being barely functional and made for political purposes while our M305's were made to actual drawings given to the Chinese by SEI. No real evolutionary link between the two.

Would you classify a Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistol on the same level as a M14/M305 receiver? I have seen some very good Chinese made Broomhandle copies made in the 1930's without the benefits of a TDP from Mauser.
 
Lol. You think China cares about your u.s law? And you say they use hand tool to make stuff like the m305 receiver ? Keep dreaming.
If China got a set of REAL M14 engineering drawing, THEY STOLED THEM! Anyone giving or selling a set to the Chinese can and would be prosecuted under United States law (violation of ITAR). Second, the Chinese have a long history of "copying" firearms. Anyone remember the Chinese made "Broomhandles"? As for making firearms, it is amazing what be done with simple machines and hand tools. Check out firearms making in the Pakistan's tribal territory. Some are real POS but other are quite good.
 
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