Clabrough & Johnstone 12 auge SxS #11###

[Da Moose]

I recently acquired this interesting old English SxS. The barrels are steel (not Damascus) and the chambers have been extended to 2-¾ inches
It has extractors. It needs some work on front of barrels where there is a bit of separation between the barrels and upper and lower ribs and the firing pins seem to be free floating to the extent that they sometimes bind when the action is closed.

The bluing is 98% and there's not a mark on the stock except a small spot of white paint on the butt plate. The engraving is clean and sharp but slightly dulled over time. The action is tight.

Can someone tell me whether these old shotguns should have springs behind the firing pins to keep them clear of the action as it is closed. I haven't tried to take it apart.

I had it at the range last week and it worked well on both barrels.

 

[canvasback]

Highly likely this gun was made before the mid 1920's. So although they are steel barrels, the steel barrels were not designed to handle current modern powders/pressure levels. If it were me, I would only be using low pressure loads (under 7500 psi) until I had had the barrel wall thickness measured by a competent SxS smith and had him judge what was appropriate to use.

Additionally if you are using standard modern loads, you have a good chance of damaging the head of the stock because after 100 some odd years, it's likely the wood has shrunk, minimizing the contact surfaces between wood and steel where the receiver meets the stock. The reduced surface area will crack from the repeated forces of recoil.

Finally, no idea what experience you have taking apart a SxS but it's not like tearing down an M12. Proceed with caution. Many, many SxS have been near ruined by amateurs (in skill, not profession) messing them up. Including the very simple and initial task of removing the screws without the proper sized drivers.

If you like the gun, it would be better served by being seen to by a competent SxS smith. Not all smiths are competent on SxS. He can the barrels, determine and fix the problem with the pins, glass bed the head of the stock.

 

[canvasback]

Pictures of the proof marks on the barrels and more of the action would help some of us in further understanding your situation and what to do. There are a myriad of different action designs for SxS shotguns and pics of the action face tell us little.

 

[oldstarfire]

I have one in 12ga and it also works well.
It was marked 2 3/4 on the forend hanger, so was made that way.
The fireing pins seem to have no springs.
Black powder proofs, but that is not unusual into the early1900's, but stout as all get out.
Mine is a bit heavy, so dont use it much.

 

[Da Moose]

Thank you canvasback and oldstarfire. I tested it with light trap one ounce loads. The shotgun looks almost new with no signs of wear on the stock and the bluing is 98%. The engraving is clean and only mildly discoloured. I could only get one photo to upload and will try the other barrel separately.

 

[canvasback]

Da Moose, I don't mean to be a PITA but......trap loads, even light trap loads can still develop relatively high pressure levels. If you aren't shooting RST or Gamebore or Winchester AA LOW RECOIL -LOW NOISE, you are likely shooting trap loads well in excess of 8000 psi. (Unless you are hand loading to a low pressure recipe.)

 

[Da Moose]

Thank Canvasback. Good advice! I'll definitely get it checked out by a good shotgun smith.

 

[straightshooter]

It shows nitro proofed on the barrel flats.

The rib separation is problematic, though. Often the reason for the separation is corrosion or stresses compromising structural integrity.

 

[Da Moose]

Lots of nice engraving though....

 

[Da Moose]

You can see the barrel and rib separation...

 

[gunsaholic]

Are the ribs themselves loose as it looks like maybe just the filler plug at the ends of the ribs has let go on one side.

 

[straightshooter]

Are the ribs themselves loose as it looks like maybe just the filler plug at the ends of the ribs has let go on one side.

Yeah, having seen that image, a competent smith could likely inspect it for further damage and perhaps even fix it while you wait.

Would you consider posting a couple of whole gun images? What I've seen of it so far looks like a nice gun in pretty decent condition.

 

[Rod]

You can see the barrel and rib separation...

Larry Potterfield, from Midway USA, has a good you tube video on re-attaching a rib on a SXS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK3X7SqvK8U

 

[canvasback]

Da Moose, I don't mean to be a PITA but......trap loads, even light trap loads can still develop relatively high pressure levels. If you aren't shooting RST or Gamebore or Winchester AA LOW RECOIL -LOW NOISE, you are likely shooting trap loads well in excess of 8000 psi. (Unless you are hand loading to a low pressure recipe.)

Just to put a finer point on this, here are some load pressures that have been independently tested:

Modern Factory 12g Target Load Pressures


RST

Ultra Lite 2 1/2” 3/4 oz. 4400 psi
Falcon Lite 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. 5520 psi
Maxi Lite 2 1/2” 1 oz. 5700 psi
Premium Grade Pheasant 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 7800 psi
Estate Super Sport Competition Target 1 oz. 8200 psi

Kent/Gamebore English Field Loads

2 1/2” 1 oz. Traditional Paper 6526 psi
2 1/2” 1 oz. Pure Gold 7832 psi

Rio 2 3/4”

TLT28SUB 1 oz. 6900 psi
TLSK28 & TLT28 1 oz. 7900 psi

B&P 2 3/4”

Competition One 24 gr. = about 7/8 oz. 5804 psi
Competition One 28 gr. = about 1 oz. 6530 psi
Competition One 32 gr. = about 1 1/8 oz. 8416 psi
2016


Kent - Gamebore Non-toxic shells

12g Bismuth 2 1/2” @ 1400 fps 1 1/16 oz. 9800 psi
12g Bismuth 2 1/2” @ 1400 fps 1 1/8 oz. 10,000 psi

12g Tungsten Impact 2 3/4” @ 1400 fps, 1 1/4 oz. 9900 psi
12g Tungsten Impact 2 3/4” @ 1400 fps, 1 3/8 oz. 11400 psi


Winchester

‘Low noise Low recoil’ 15/16 oz. AA12FL 6,200 psi
New AAHS Xtra-Lite Target 1 oz. AAL12 8,760 psi
Super-Target 1 oz. TRGTL12 10,440 psi
Super Sport Sporting Clays 1 1/8 oz. AASC12 11,660 psi

Remington

Premier Nitro STS Sporting Clays 1 1/8 12NSC 10,160 psi

 

[VictoryXC]

Great information. Thanks for sharing James.

 

[canvasback]

Patrick, interesting discussion right now about original levels most guns were being built for in the 1900 to 1925 period, to meet proof house requirements on Double Gun right now. Information from one of the resident experts suggests that any 1 ounce 12 gauge load is fine in any set of barrels from that era, provided barrels have been checked by a competent smith with all the usual caveats. Note, the wood may still have some problems with recoil but the barrels should be fine.

 

[hnachaj1]

I have a one not as fancy. They were made in Birmingham and sold in London. Here is some history: http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=161 I shoot 1 Oz ND 1 1/8 oZ Loads in mine with no problems.