Finally got around to having my first outing with the Type 81 folder. Bear in mind, I only got mine in mid-December, and with the Christmas holiday run-up, yesterday was my first chance to get it out to shoot.
Now I'm not sure who has been following the weather in the National Capital Region, but we've literally had Environment Canada "Extreme Cold Warnings" every day for a straight week. Yesterday was only minus 25C and it isn't going to get much warmer before I have to go back to work next week, so yesterday had to be the day. And no, I'm not talking about "wind chill" or "feels like". It was straight-up minus 25 cold according to my phone, the radio, and the thermometer on my truck's dashboard. I literally wore thermal undies, ski pants, a thermal fleece and a 2-layer winter coat, a balaclava, and thick gloves. I probably looked like how a Chinese soldier would have looked at the Chosin Reservoir stomping around my acreage.
So all that to say, this review won't dazzle everyone with teeny tiny groups measured with a micrometer. I got 100 rounds downrange before my wife nagged me into packing up and going because she was too cold - and truth be told, I was too
. My skin was literally sticking to the gun whenever I took my gloves off (!).
The VZ58 we had with us quit working half way through the first mag and became a single shot - it looked like the bolt carrier was slowing down as the oil in the gun congealed, causing partial feeds that had to be manually pressed home. It didn't like the "extreme cold" so much. I'm happy to report though that the T81 ran 100 reliably. Not one FTE, no misfeeds, nothing. It just worked. All I had done was wipe down the outside of the gun and took it shooting with that nasty-ass heavy brown chicom packing oil still all over the gun's components. And I only had the gas setting on 1, I didn't even need to raise it to 2.
Interestingly - this thing FLINGS the brass. Mine was headed between 2 and 3 o'clock about 10 feet away. I did have to adjust the front sight post to get it to POA at 50m. It was shooting about 4" low out of the box, a couple turns in, and it was bang-on at 50. It was too cold and I had thick gloves on, so the best I managed was 3" groups at 50 (i.e. 6MOA) with my glasses fogging up. I know I could do much better, but given the conditions, I'll take it.
Next I moved out to the 8" gong at 100 yards. Hit it 100% of the time off the bench, and managed about a 60% success rate standing unsupported. Again, not bad for the conditions. I was shooting Wolf Polyformance 7.62x39 123 Grain HP that I had hoarded away from a few years ago. Great stuff, although some of the casings had surface rust on them - unusual since I store it in a climate controlled room. Might have been there since manufacture - who knows. It ran well though.
Now for impressions:
1) Safety ergos - many ppl are complaining about the safety. True, it's not a 45 degree safety like you'd find on an H&K, but to be honest, I had no issues manipulating it with my index finger (I shoot lefty). It felt no different than an AR15 safety - basically identical. I was going to machine a 90 degree safety, but after using it in "extreme cold" with gloves on, I had no issues, and I'm not going to fix a problem that doesn't exist. (See post No.45 in this thread for details on how to mod the safety, if desired)
2) Sights - I had no issues with the "T-bar" on top of the sights. After the first couple mags, I didn't even notice it was there. To be frank, I'm not sure why so many ppl are chopping the sights, I found it a total non-issue.
3) Grip - I only shot with winter gloves on, but it seems about perfect for gloved use. Maybe with bare hands I'd have found it a little on the small side, but a bigger grip would have made gloved use feel awkward.
4) Balance, recoil, shootability - I think the extra mass of our longer grenade launcher is a bit of a blessing in disguise. I didn't find it so muzzle heavy to be noticeable or annoying, but it was muzzle heavy enough that I believe it was helping tame muzzle flip a bit. I was making faster doubles then I can with an AK (when shooting in the states) or a VZ58. I found the recoil impulse to be perhaps the nicest feel of any 7.62x39 rifle I've shot in this class. I was very pleasantly surprised. Overall it just felt good - better than I expected it would. There is no recoil to speak of - if anyone here thinks the T81 has significant recoil, you need to go back to shooting tacticool Ruger 10/22's.
For those wondering, I found the OEM folder easy to shoot with a great cheek weld. I was worried it would suck and that I'd long for a fixed stock T81, but luckily I now believe I made the right choice. Select a folder with confidence. Also, my cheek largely ended up on the bakelite, not the actual metal of the folder, which was merciful given how cold it was.
5) Wear-in on parts, etc. - When I got the gun home for a thorough cleaning & inspection, I noticed a few things:
For starters, the bolt carrier was peening at the back of the carrier just above the shaft of the bolt. This is where the carrier strikes the hammer when it starts to recoil, but before the bolt lugs have unlocked. It looks like it is self-limiting and probably part of normal break-in. I lightly filed off the burrs that had formed when I got home and will keep an eye on it. Likely the chinese should have radiused that part of the carried at manufacture, but as I said, it seems to be wearing in and looks self-limiting based on the carrier to hammer geometry. There was no deformation on the hammer at all, so it's likely a much harder part than the bolt carrier is.
Here's a photo of the area I am talking about. You can see the "smooshed" surface on the carrier that recoils back into the hammer milliseconds before the bolt lugs unlock. It's hammering it into a more even contact area. This had displaced some metal (a burr) toward the bolt body shank, which I filed off before taking this photo. If left unchecked, it's possible the burr could rub against the bolt shaft when it unlocks and moves rearward, though it would have to burr up a LOT. While I believe this deformation will be self-limiting, I will monitor it for the first 1000 rounds or so.
Similarly, there bolt cam seems to be wearing in to match the cam profile in the carrier a little better. Both parts were bead blasted at manufacture, and I can see them wearing smooth at the contact points already. Probably a good thing, but I pul a little PTFE grease on the bolt cam to give it a little help from now on.
Both lugs show signs of good locking recess contact, which is a good thing. Overall, the gun felt gritty before this range outing, but afterward, I can already tell it's smoothing out considerably.
6) Gas handling - I was surprised at how dirty this gun runs. It's a dirty dirty girl. The Wolf ammo I was using is known to be a little sooty - heck, most 7.62x39 is sooty. On these guns, the gas goes up from the barrel, into a machined cup that the gas valve fits tightly into. The gas cup holes (normal and a larger hole for adverse conditions) align to the barrel vent hole, and the piston rides inside the gas valve. The piston to gas valve fit is not that tight, presumably because you want the gun to be reliable when dirty.
There was very little soot and residue between the valve and the cup, but a lot of soot and gas escapes past the piston when the gun fires. There are no vent holes like an AK has, so any excess soot and gas that doesn't go out the muzzle squeezes out around the circumference of the gas piston. The piston has a shoulder on it that bottoms out inside the rear sight base - which doubles as a gas piton guide. It looks like it hits there with a fair degree of force wen cycling. I found that as the rifle was breaking in, a sharp lip formed on the gas piston shoulder where it was bottoming out. This is likely just part of the gun wearing in, but I stoned off the sharp lip around the circumference of the piston so it would not wear against the gas piston spring. This picture shows the shoulder I'm talking about. The thin area of bright metal at the very edge of the shoulder is where I stoned off the small sharp lip that developed from break-in shooting.
As the soot escapes the gas valve and bleeds past the gas piston, soot comes out the vent holes on the sides of the handguard and is generally deposited everywhere under the handguard and on the top of the exposed barrel shank. My handguard vent slots are starting to turn fouling grey from this venting arrangement.
All of this results in a gun that runs well, but I have to admit I prefer the SKS gas system over this one. The SKS keeps the gas confined in an easy to clean tube with only 2 small vent holes that align to handguard vents. When shooting corrosive ammo, this will created a bit of a cleaning chore as the inside of the handguard and the exposed portions of the barrel will need to be cleaned thoroughly. I may take off the lower handguard to clean the rifle when using corrosive ammo for just this reason. Something to watch out for an be aware of.
7) Use of converted metal AK mags. Well, this was kind of a fail for me. The T81 mags I have all ran 100%, but my converted Norinco AK mag failed to feed on the last round 100% of the time. Which was only two times, because I got angry, threw it back in the range bag, and ran real T81 mags with 100% reliability. So what went wrong?
Well, I have to wonder how many other guys who posted pics of them converting mags have actually run them at the range, because I now know what the issue is, and I fixed it when I got home. Bottom line up front: AK mag followers are machined differently than T81 followers. After doing this fix today, the Norinco mag now feeds 100%. So boys and girls, time for some arts and crafts if you are converting steel AK mags. I don't know if P-mags are affected, I don't have any.
Here is a T81 mag (left) compared to a Type 56 AK mag (right). Notice the follower where the arrows point. There is no cutout on the follower of the AK mag. Both AK and T81 mags have detents inside the mag body that limit how high up the follower can go in the mag. AK bolt feed lugs hang lower in the receiver than on a T81, so the followers are set to not rise up as high, so the feed lug doesn't hit the back of the follower.
Both AK and T81 mags have detents inside the mag body that limit how high up the follower can go in the mag. AK bolt feed lugs hang lower in the receiver than on a T81, so the followers are set to not rise up as high, so the feed lug doesn't hit the back of the follower, as shown here:
Not only is the AK mag missing a machining step that the T81 follower has, but the cutout on the other side of the follower is 3mm too shallow compared to the T81 follower.
Luckily, our hero has a knee mill.... (but you could likely accomplish the same thing with a dremel tool (?). I only took one photo of the new cut, but I also deepened the one on the other side of the follower by 3mm.
Now you can see the modified AK mag follower (right) matches the T81 follower (left):
And the AK follower (left) now sits at the same height as the T81 follower (right):
So is the T81 "worth" the $1000 asking price? That's a tough question if you think an SKS is "worth" $250. To me, I am happy with what I paid for this rifle. I honestly can't see myself carrying an SKS when I can carry this handy folder instead. It handles better than an SKS, shoots softer than an SKS, has adjustable gas settings, a pistol grip, removable mags, a proper AR-style safety, and a folding stock.
I would, however, suggest people re-think what an SKS is worth. SKS's sell for $250 because there are millions of them on the civilian market, and 10's of thousands of those are here on Canadian store shelves as old cold-war adversaries dump them for scrap value while upgrading their arsenals. I would sibmit that a nicely machined steel SKS in a hand-fitted wood stock could not be made anywhere in the world today for $250. They would likely cost more than a stamped-receiver T81 to manufacture if there were still made today. SKS's are a great bargain right now, and I would not discourage anyone from jumping onto that bargain.
T81's cost more because they are newly made and we aren't awash in surplus T81's. Is the price difference worth it to you? Probably not if you are perfectly satisfied with a stock SKS. But if you are the kind of guy who mods the SKS to get T81-like features (PG & detachable mags), you are starting to get close to T81 prices, and the T81 will end up with better ergonomics, better balance, will be lighter overall, and be generally more satisfactory in every way.
Now I'm not sure who has been following the weather in the National Capital Region, but we've literally had Environment Canada "Extreme Cold Warnings" every day for a straight week. Yesterday was only minus 25C and it isn't going to get much warmer before I have to go back to work next week, so yesterday had to be the day. And no, I'm not talking about "wind chill" or "feels like". It was straight-up minus 25 cold according to my phone, the radio, and the thermometer on my truck's dashboard. I literally wore thermal undies, ski pants, a thermal fleece and a 2-layer winter coat, a balaclava, and thick gloves. I probably looked like how a Chinese soldier would have looked at the Chosin Reservoir stomping around my acreage.
So all that to say, this review won't dazzle everyone with teeny tiny groups measured with a micrometer. I got 100 rounds downrange before my wife nagged me into packing up and going because she was too cold - and truth be told, I was too
. My skin was literally sticking to the gun whenever I took my gloves off (!). The VZ58 we had with us quit working half way through the first mag and became a single shot - it looked like the bolt carrier was slowing down as the oil in the gun congealed, causing partial feeds that had to be manually pressed home. It didn't like the "extreme cold" so much. I'm happy to report though that the T81 ran 100 reliably. Not one FTE, no misfeeds, nothing. It just worked. All I had done was wipe down the outside of the gun and took it shooting with that nasty-ass heavy brown chicom packing oil still all over the gun's components. And I only had the gas setting on 1, I didn't even need to raise it to 2.
Interestingly - this thing FLINGS the brass. Mine was headed between 2 and 3 o'clock about 10 feet away. I did have to adjust the front sight post to get it to POA at 50m. It was shooting about 4" low out of the box, a couple turns in, and it was bang-on at 50. It was too cold and I had thick gloves on, so the best I managed was 3" groups at 50 (i.e. 6MOA) with my glasses fogging up. I know I could do much better, but given the conditions, I'll take it.
Next I moved out to the 8" gong at 100 yards. Hit it 100% of the time off the bench, and managed about a 60% success rate standing unsupported. Again, not bad for the conditions. I was shooting Wolf Polyformance 7.62x39 123 Grain HP that I had hoarded away from a few years ago. Great stuff, although some of the casings had surface rust on them - unusual since I store it in a climate controlled room. Might have been there since manufacture - who knows. It ran well though.
Now for impressions:
1) Safety ergos - many ppl are complaining about the safety. True, it's not a 45 degree safety like you'd find on an H&K, but to be honest, I had no issues manipulating it with my index finger (I shoot lefty). It felt no different than an AR15 safety - basically identical. I was going to machine a 90 degree safety, but after using it in "extreme cold" with gloves on, I had no issues, and I'm not going to fix a problem that doesn't exist. (See post No.45 in this thread for details on how to mod the safety, if desired)
2) Sights - I had no issues with the "T-bar" on top of the sights. After the first couple mags, I didn't even notice it was there. To be frank, I'm not sure why so many ppl are chopping the sights, I found it a total non-issue.
3) Grip - I only shot with winter gloves on, but it seems about perfect for gloved use. Maybe with bare hands I'd have found it a little on the small side, but a bigger grip would have made gloved use feel awkward.
4) Balance, recoil, shootability - I think the extra mass of our longer grenade launcher is a bit of a blessing in disguise. I didn't find it so muzzle heavy to be noticeable or annoying, but it was muzzle heavy enough that I believe it was helping tame muzzle flip a bit. I was making faster doubles then I can with an AK (when shooting in the states) or a VZ58. I found the recoil impulse to be perhaps the nicest feel of any 7.62x39 rifle I've shot in this class. I was very pleasantly surprised. Overall it just felt good - better than I expected it would. There is no recoil to speak of - if anyone here thinks the T81 has significant recoil, you need to go back to shooting tacticool Ruger 10/22's.
For those wondering, I found the OEM folder easy to shoot with a great cheek weld. I was worried it would suck and that I'd long for a fixed stock T81, but luckily I now believe I made the right choice. Select a folder with confidence. Also, my cheek largely ended up on the bakelite, not the actual metal of the folder, which was merciful given how cold it was.
5) Wear-in on parts, etc. - When I got the gun home for a thorough cleaning & inspection, I noticed a few things:
For starters, the bolt carrier was peening at the back of the carrier just above the shaft of the bolt. This is where the carrier strikes the hammer when it starts to recoil, but before the bolt lugs have unlocked. It looks like it is self-limiting and probably part of normal break-in. I lightly filed off the burrs that had formed when I got home and will keep an eye on it. Likely the chinese should have radiused that part of the carried at manufacture, but as I said, it seems to be wearing in and looks self-limiting based on the carrier to hammer geometry. There was no deformation on the hammer at all, so it's likely a much harder part than the bolt carrier is.
Here's a photo of the area I am talking about. You can see the "smooshed" surface on the carrier that recoils back into the hammer milliseconds before the bolt lugs unlock. It's hammering it into a more even contact area. This had displaced some metal (a burr) toward the bolt body shank, which I filed off before taking this photo. If left unchecked, it's possible the burr could rub against the bolt shaft when it unlocks and moves rearward, though it would have to burr up a LOT. While I believe this deformation will be self-limiting, I will monitor it for the first 1000 rounds or so.
Similarly, there bolt cam seems to be wearing in to match the cam profile in the carrier a little better. Both parts were bead blasted at manufacture, and I can see them wearing smooth at the contact points already. Probably a good thing, but I pul a little PTFE grease on the bolt cam to give it a little help from now on.
Both lugs show signs of good locking recess contact, which is a good thing. Overall, the gun felt gritty before this range outing, but afterward, I can already tell it's smoothing out considerably.
6) Gas handling - I was surprised at how dirty this gun runs. It's a dirty dirty girl. The Wolf ammo I was using is known to be a little sooty - heck, most 7.62x39 is sooty. On these guns, the gas goes up from the barrel, into a machined cup that the gas valve fits tightly into. The gas cup holes (normal and a larger hole for adverse conditions) align to the barrel vent hole, and the piston rides inside the gas valve. The piston to gas valve fit is not that tight, presumably because you want the gun to be reliable when dirty.
There was very little soot and residue between the valve and the cup, but a lot of soot and gas escapes past the piston when the gun fires. There are no vent holes like an AK has, so any excess soot and gas that doesn't go out the muzzle squeezes out around the circumference of the gas piston. The piston has a shoulder on it that bottoms out inside the rear sight base - which doubles as a gas piton guide. It looks like it hits there with a fair degree of force wen cycling. I found that as the rifle was breaking in, a sharp lip formed on the gas piston shoulder where it was bottoming out. This is likely just part of the gun wearing in, but I stoned off the sharp lip around the circumference of the piston so it would not wear against the gas piston spring. This picture shows the shoulder I'm talking about. The thin area of bright metal at the very edge of the shoulder is where I stoned off the small sharp lip that developed from break-in shooting.
As the soot escapes the gas valve and bleeds past the gas piston, soot comes out the vent holes on the sides of the handguard and is generally deposited everywhere under the handguard and on the top of the exposed barrel shank. My handguard vent slots are starting to turn fouling grey from this venting arrangement.
All of this results in a gun that runs well, but I have to admit I prefer the SKS gas system over this one. The SKS keeps the gas confined in an easy to clean tube with only 2 small vent holes that align to handguard vents. When shooting corrosive ammo, this will created a bit of a cleaning chore as the inside of the handguard and the exposed portions of the barrel will need to be cleaned thoroughly. I may take off the lower handguard to clean the rifle when using corrosive ammo for just this reason. Something to watch out for an be aware of.
7) Use of converted metal AK mags. Well, this was kind of a fail for me. The T81 mags I have all ran 100%, but my converted Norinco AK mag failed to feed on the last round 100% of the time. Which was only two times, because I got angry, threw it back in the range bag, and ran real T81 mags with 100% reliability. So what went wrong?
Well, I have to wonder how many other guys who posted pics of them converting mags have actually run them at the range, because I now know what the issue is, and I fixed it when I got home. Bottom line up front: AK mag followers are machined differently than T81 followers. After doing this fix today, the Norinco mag now feeds 100%. So boys and girls, time for some arts and crafts if you are converting steel AK mags. I don't know if P-mags are affected, I don't have any.
Here is a T81 mag (left) compared to a Type 56 AK mag (right). Notice the follower where the arrows point. There is no cutout on the follower of the AK mag. Both AK and T81 mags have detents inside the mag body that limit how high up the follower can go in the mag. AK bolt feed lugs hang lower in the receiver than on a T81, so the followers are set to not rise up as high, so the feed lug doesn't hit the back of the follower.
Both AK and T81 mags have detents inside the mag body that limit how high up the follower can go in the mag. AK bolt feed lugs hang lower in the receiver than on a T81, so the followers are set to not rise up as high, so the feed lug doesn't hit the back of the follower, as shown here:
Not only is the AK mag missing a machining step that the T81 follower has, but the cutout on the other side of the follower is 3mm too shallow compared to the T81 follower.
Luckily, our hero has a knee mill.... (but you could likely accomplish the same thing with a dremel tool (?). I only took one photo of the new cut, but I also deepened the one on the other side of the follower by 3mm.
Now you can see the modified AK mag follower (right) matches the T81 follower (left):
And the AK follower (left) now sits at the same height as the T81 follower (right):
So is the T81 "worth" the $1000 asking price? That's a tough question if you think an SKS is "worth" $250. To me, I am happy with what I paid for this rifle. I honestly can't see myself carrying an SKS when I can carry this handy folder instead. It handles better than an SKS, shoots softer than an SKS, has adjustable gas settings, a pistol grip, removable mags, a proper AR-style safety, and a folding stock.
I would, however, suggest people re-think what an SKS is worth. SKS's sell for $250 because there are millions of them on the civilian market, and 10's of thousands of those are here on Canadian store shelves as old cold-war adversaries dump them for scrap value while upgrading their arsenals. I would sibmit that a nicely machined steel SKS in a hand-fitted wood stock could not be made anywhere in the world today for $250. They would likely cost more than a stamped-receiver T81 to manufacture if there were still made today. SKS's are a great bargain right now, and I would not discourage anyone from jumping onto that bargain.
T81's cost more because they are newly made and we aren't awash in surplus T81's. Is the price difference worth it to you? Probably not if you are perfectly satisfied with a stock SKS. But if you are the kind of guy who mods the SKS to get T81-like features (PG & detachable mags), you are starting to get close to T81 prices, and the T81 will end up with better ergonomics, better balance, will be lighter overall, and be generally more satisfactory in every way.
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