Cleaning and ammo testing

Keep in mind that the steel used for 22 LR barrels is likely not as hard as the steel used for centerfire.

It's just easier for the barrel maker to drill a straight hole if the steel is not so hard, and 22LR pressures don't need high tensile steel.

So this is just one more reason to be extra careful when cleaning a 22.
 
Keep in mind that the steel used for 22 LR barrels is likely not as hard as the steel used for centerfire.

It's just easier for the barrel maker to drill a straight hole if the steel is not so hard, and 22LR pressures don't need high tensile steel.

So this is just one more reason to be extra careful when cleaning a 22.

You are saying that .22LR barrels are made of different kind of steel than centerfire barrels, a steel that is less hard than for other barrels. Is there any evidence for this claim?

The basic choices in what a barrel is made from is usually either chrome moly (4140) or stainless steel (416R).
 
Keep in mind that the steel used for 22 LR barrels is likely not as hard as the steel used for centerfire.

It's just easier for the barrel maker to drill a straight hole if the steel is not so hard, and 22LR pressures don't need high tensile steel.

So this is just one more reason to be extra careful when cleaning a 22.

I've never read/heard this before. I'd be curious to know where this info came from.
 
I cannot recall the exact source, but the point stuck particularly in reference to Lilja 22 LR barrels.

It's not the grade of steel that determines the hardness BTW.
Keep in mind that any grade of steel can be hardened or annealed to the desired hardness... within a range.
 
Here's a question... what's the life expectancy of a .22LR barrel? How long will my T1x last, assuming I take care of it (cleaned when needed), and oiled for storage - shooting SV ammo. I'd love to hear "forever" but realize that's a bit of a stretch
 
Here's a question... what's the life expectancy of a .22LR barrel? How long will my T1x last, assuming I take care of it (cleaned when needed), and oiled for storage - shooting SV ammo. I'd love to hear "forever" but realize that's a bit of a stretch

That is sort of like "how long is a piece of string?". Too many variables to answer properly. Likely long enough for you to enjoy your time with it and have moved on to another new favorite toy.
 
Here's a question... what's the life expectancy of a .22LR barrel? How long will my T1x last, assuming I take care of it (cleaned when needed), and oiled for storage - shooting SV ammo. I'd love to hear "forever" but realize that's a bit of a stretch

It'll last your lifetime without worry if it's not abused. There are a lot of old rifles out there that shoot just fine.
 
Keep in mind that the steel used for 22 LR barrels is likely not as hard as the steel used for centerfire.

It's just easier for the barrel maker to drill a straight hole if the steel is not so hard, and 22LR pressures don't need high tensile steel.

So this is just one more reason to be extra careful when cleaning a 22.

I cannot recall the exact source, but the point stuck particularly in reference to Lilja 22 LR barrels.

It's not the grade of steel that determines the hardness BTW.
Keep in mind that any grade of steel can be hardened or annealed to the desired hardness... within a range.

The barrel blanks from which barrels are made -- drilled, reamed, rifled, stress relieved, contoured, chambered, and finished -- are invariably chrome moly or stainless steel. The size of the future bore and chamber is irrelevant until the caliber of the barrel is determined. The same barrel blank can become a barrel for a .22LR or a centerfire.
 
I tend to agree with Glenn ( Grauhanen ) on this one. I also have heard stories of rimfire bores being more fragile. But I consulted a few rimfire gurus on RFC about this. Some of these guys gunsmiths or had work experience in well known gunshops and they all told me that it is a pure myth and that rimfire bores are as solid as centerfire bores. Actually it appears that on vintage Winchester 52's or Remington 40x's the quality of the steel used surpasses modern standards. Probably still true for quality high end products like Anschutz etc.

Gilbert
 
Yep, I call BS on rimfire barrels being "softer" than centerfire barrels. Having cut and crowned both a CZ and Anschütz barrel, I can tell you that the chromoly steel is very hard. Custom barrels for match rifles are exclusively stainless, because it is much easier to machine and finish compared to chromoly. That is to say, a stainless match barrel is softer than the typical factory barrel on most rifles.
 
Advice from Lilja Barrels

http://riflebarrels.com/support/22-rimfire-maintenance/

Cleaning Rimfire Barrels

Rimfire rifle barrels are different from centerfire barrels in that they require very little cleaning and essentially no break-in procedure. We have asked several of the top rimfire shooters and gunsmiths that use our barrels about their procedures and based on our own experience, have come up with our recommendation for cleaning.

In a match-grade stainless steel hand-lapped barrel, leading is an almost nonexistent problem. Powder fouling is minimal too. It is possible however to have an accumulation of fouling in the leade area in front of the chamber. A build up here is detrimental to top accuracy.

We suggest cleaning in the following manner. After approximately 100 rounds push a dry loose patch through the barrel from the breach end. This pushes out loose fouling. Then take a tighter dry patch and work it back and forth about 10 times in the leade area, pushing it out of the barrel at the muzzle end when finished.

Every 200-300 rounds a loose (worn out) 22 caliber bronze brush, wet with solvent, should be worked back and forth in the leade area with short strokes and withdrawn from the chamber end. If there is any evidence of lead in the barrel then brushing the full length of the barrel with solvent is suggested.

Match quality bullets have a wax coating on them that aids accuracy. It may take 10-50 shots to “lay” a good coating of it down in the barrel and using solvents will only remove this desirable wax coating.

Users of the 10/22-type semi-auto barrels may have to remove the accumulated powder fouling buildup that forms on the breach end of the barrel. Extraction problems may result eventually unless solvent is used on this type of fouling.
 
There is no set procedure for what shooters should do to clean a barrel or how often to clean it. The information from Lilja reproduced above is a good example.

For every custom barrel maker there is probably a variation on cleaning routine and frequency. Bartlein's website doesn't recommends using a jag/patch combination over brushes (apparently for all their barrels) rather than brushes of any kind. h t t p s ://bartleinbarrels.com/cleaning-and-breaking-in-guide-lines/ On the other hand, Shilen calls for the use of brass brushes followed by patches. h t t p ://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question11 Benchmark tells users of their custom barrels to use their normal cleaning regimen, following the cleaning product manufacturer's instructions. h t t p ://benchmark-barrels.com/Benchmark_Barrels/Benchmark_Barrels_-_Support.html

Ammo manufacturers also have recommendations. Eley, for example, encourages frequent cleaning of .22LR barrels (and remember they don't make cleaning products). Eley insists a "clean gun shoots better than a dirty gun." But how often to clean? Eley has this to say:

At ELEY, when testing a rifle we note when it is cleaned and data is collected on the fouling shots. Our engineers have crunched the numbers and come to the conclusion that cleaning is good for rimfire barrels. I’ve also drawn the same conclusion from my experience shooting Benchrest. Every barrel loses accuracy once it becomes dirty, although the point at which it loses accuracy is different for each barrel. In almost all rimfire competitions, somewhere between 25 – 100 shots are required before a competitor can easily clean their rifle. I also have not personally seen a rifle that could not shoot at least 100 rounds before losing accuracy due to fouling. So, we settled on 90-100 rounds in between cleanings.

Dan Killough, who wrote those words for the Eley website, describes the cleaning procedure he uses at the Eley facitilites:

At the Texas range we use a bore guide that fits the cleaning rod tightly and that does not go all the way to the barrel. Instead it stops at the loading ramp. I like to see the rod as it goes into the barrel. This is so I can verify that it is going straight down the center. For this I use a Kleen Bore Jag because it is the same diameter as my cleaning rod. I prefer Pro-Shot 1 1/8 inch square cleaning patches, and Pro-Shot 1-Step Solvent. I push one wet patch down the barrel and remove the patch at the muzzle. Then, to remove the combustion ring, I use a Short 10 inch cleaning rod. This has a .22 caliber nylon brush to scrub the first two or three inches of the barrel with a back and forth motion for about 10 strokes.
Next, I push more wet patches down the barrel until they come out clean. Typically this takes about four patches. If I’m continuing to shoot the rifle, I’ll end with a dry patch. If I am finished shooting for the day I’ll end with a wet patch.
I’ve bore-scoped many .22 barrels and have found that a nylon brush always removes the combustion ring. In the past I’ve used a bronze brush which I don’t believe will damage the barrel. Although many people do not like to use them on rimfire barrels. The nylon brush could not possibly damage the barrel and I know it is getting the job done, so that is what I use.

h t t p s ://eley.co.uk/barrel-cleaning-for-improving-your-shot/

For anyone looking for a detailed and thoughtful review of the need for cleaning, cleaning techniques, and products should read Steve Boelter's excellent treatise "Rimfire Cleaning" h t t p ://www.ssvtexel.nl/index.cfm?act=files.download&ui=C5C9D865-2200-0A21-B5F5CF897974784F It's 45 pages long -- but it has pictures too.

Who's to say any of them are wrong? What they have in common is not to avoid cleaning, use proper equipment -- including a bore guide and a good rod. Feel free to use a brush, brass or nylon, but definitely put a wet patch (better still, several of them) through the bore soon after shooting, followed by dry patches, especially if storing the rifle.

I will conclude with a couple of posts from Rimfire Central back in 2011 in one of those frequent and interminable threads about cleaning. h t t p s ://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393714

I have read that Olympic shooters rarely clean the barrel of a .22, and would NEVER use a metal brush, if they ever did clean the bore.

Bench rest and centerfire guys seem to be all over the map, and what they do for cleaning doesn't seem to affect how they finish.

I'm an Olympic rifle shooter and I clean my rifle every time I shoot. That is between 75 and 175 rounds a day. I always use a rod and always use a bronze brush. 99% of the others in Olympic level shooting do likewise.

If you are shooting at those big fat NRA targets (or squirrels), it may not be necessary. If you are shooting for maximum accuracy you clean regularly.

I always use a bore guide. I'd LOVE to see my competitors using a bore snake!

Eric U

Eric U is Eric Uptagrafft. He was on the U.S. Olympic shooting team in 1996 and 2012 (where he finished 16th) and shares the world record for 50m prone. He's an engineer and currently produces precision shooting products.
 
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I was out for lunch yesterday with an 81 year old target shooter. He shot fullbore and smallbore target rifles in competitions all over the world for most of his adult life and either won or placed high in the pack for his fair share.

I discussed this subject with him and he chuckled a little and said that he never cleaned his small bore rifles and never knew of any fellow competitors who did. That included the nationals at Camp Perry in Ohio where I have seen his shooting partners name (Art Grundy) on the smallbore trophies there.

He said that other shooters "may have cleaned", but he never saw anyone do it and it was nothing anyone made any noise about.

Granted he has been retired from TR sling and 3 position shooting for about 5 years now, so things may have changed since.

Just take it for what its worth.

Reading between the lines here I think this subject is much like many things people do out of tradition and superstition rather than hard tangible facts in the shooting world.

Thinking back to a personal smallbore shooting experience I had many years ago where my brother and I were curious how many rounds it would take before my semi auto Brno 22 would jam. It was so reliable that we had to find out... I don't remember the exact count but it was between 1000 and 1500, but the interesting point was that it jammed because a bullet could not fit into the chamber because of the donut of crud that had formed in the chamber. Once that was cleaned it went right on shooting again.

So to that point I would pass along that it is necessary to clean the chamber and possibly the throat "occasionally", but I have no reason to conclude the barrel would need anything more than a patch.
 
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I was out for lunch yesterday with an 81 year old target shooter. He shot fullbore and smallbore target rifles in competitions all over the world for most of his adult life and either won or placed high in the pack for his fair share.

I discussed this subject with him and he chuckled a little and said that he never cleaned his small bore rifles and never knew of any fellow competitors who did. That included the nationals at Camp Perry in Ohio where I have seen his shooting partners name (Art Grundy) on the smallbore trophies there.

He said that other shooters "may have cleaned", but he never saw anyone do it and it was nothing anyone made any noise about.


Granted he has been retired from TR sling and 3 position shooting for about 5 years now, so things may have changed since.

Just take it for what its worth.

Reading between the lines here I think this subject is much like many things people do out of tradition and superstition rather than hard tangible facts in the shooting world.

Thinking back to a personal smallbore shooting experience I had many years ago where my brother and I were curious how many rounds it would take before my semi auto Brno 22 would jam. It was so reliable that we had to find out... I don't remember the exact count but it was between 1000 and 1500, but the interesting point was that it jammed because a bullet could not fit into the chamber because of the donut of crud that had formed in the chamber. Once that was cleaned it went right on shooting again.

So to that point I would pass along that it is necessary to clean the chamber and possibly the throat "occasionally", but I have no reason to conclude the barrel would need anything more than a patch.

Readers interested in the best accuracy from their rifles should not accept the idea that it is only necessary to clean the chamber and possibly the throat "occasionally" and that the barrel would never need anything more than a patch.

A second hand story about an alleged competitive small bore shooter who claimed that neither he nor his fellow competitors ever cleaned their .22LR competition rifles is an anecdote that does little to buttress support for the view that .22LR bores rarely need cleaning, save for an occasional patch. It's this kind of poppycock that deserves to be called out as ill-informed. No serious shooter eschews cleaning his rifle. A cleaner rifle shoots better than a dirtier one. The issue is important here if only because newer shooters unfamiliar with shooting and rifle cleaning might take such words at face value.

It is not tradition or superstition that causes experienced shooters the world over -- with the notable exception of the 81-year-old who fortuitously appeared to cast aspersions on the need for cleaning -- to say that cleaning a rifle is related to the accuracy it can produce. It is real world experience accumulated over time and buttressed by real results at high levels of competition.

The personal experience shared about a semi-auto Brno is not relevant nor is it informative except about the lengths to which some shooters might go to prove that a rifle without a reputation for accuracy will still cycle ammunition. It is an unimaginative and weak argument used to sustain the point of view that small bore rifles need little or no cleaning.

Unfortunately your credibility has come into question here with your false notion that rimfire barrels are "softer" than those of other rifles (post #21 in this thread). Elsewhere in the Rimfire Forum of CGN you claimed to shoot 1 MOA in calm conditions at 200 yards "often enough" and that you shoot 1.5 MOA at 300 yards -- all this with a CZ 452 Varmint, no less. (See the litany of questionable and misleading posts in the thread "Realistic 100 Yard Accuracy" in this forum.)

Now you attempt to take your views on the relevance of cleaning to similar spurious levels. Leave well enough alone and don't give unqualified advice based on dubious experience. When you have taken your "it's not necessary to clean your rifle" approach to loftier levels than the keyboard, when you have shot a little more and gained more experience, when you've used a match quality rifle with good results without cleaning -- then get back to giving advice. No one interested in the best accuracy should seriously accept the idea that it is only necessary to clean the chamber and possibly the throat "occasionally", while the barrel would never need anything more than a patch.

Of course, if you are only plinking or shooting for fun, a minimalist approach is probably quite sufficient.
 
:agree: In my pursuit of the 1/4" challenge, I'm cleaning every 100 rounds. I back up my decision to clean this "often" with my borescope, as it shows me that appreciable fouling has indeed accumulated in the chamber, and a few patches do nothing to remove it. I push a wet patch, remove the jag at the muzzle, and pull a .223" bronze brush back through the bore, repeating 1-3 times while at the range, and at the conclusion of shooting before going home. Even with this treatment, after say a 500 round day, I still see fouling in the chamber when I get home and a more thorough brushing is required. It takes no more than 5 fouling shots for the rifle to be back to high level accuracy. I would view shooting 1000+ rounds without cleaning as neglectful, while someone here claimed this interval to be "aggressive". I've seen several rifles start to lose their edge around 75+ rounds fired from a clean barrel. Not to say they suddenly become "shotguns", but enough that it makes a successful 1/4" 5 group string much less likely to occur.
 
I think the turn of accurate may be quite subjective. What works in the gopher patch and tin cans is not the same as shooting for score. When you think about it how can a bullet plowing through curd not be affected. With my ability it might not make much difference, but those that can use the potential of there guns can and do see a difference.
 
When I shoot a match I start with a clean barrel, fire 10 fouling shots then 50 for score. Clean and shoot 10 fouling shots then 50 for score for a total of 100 shots for score per match. I have a Lilja 3 groove barrel and notice dropping scores if I don’t follow this regimen
 
Readers interested in the best accuracy from their rifles should not accept the idea that it is only necessary to clean the chamber and possibly the throat "occasionally" and that the barrel would never need anything more than a patch.

I should have expected this garbage...

You thought I was full of it when I said I was shooting pop can sized groups at 300 yards, then posted pictures to prove it and now you seem to forget that.

I posted that I recall Lilja barrels for 22 are softer steel than center fire and you don't believe that... You offer no evidence to prove that it is not softer steel, just insist that I am not correct. That does not make me wrong or prove in any way that it is not true. It's not as though Dan Lilja is going to post it on his web page. Now that I think of it, I think it was in Precision Shooting magazine.

Instead of purporting yourself to be the judge and jury of all things small bore, perhaps you should consider at least the "possibility" that you don't actually know "everything".

Just because you don't believe something, does not serve as evidence to prove it is not correct.

The context of my story about chamber fouling in reference to a blow back semi auto, does not necessarily translate to a bolt gun. For reasons I hope are obvious.

I'm not telling anyone what they must or must not do. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or that I'm the only person who is right. I'm just saying that people often do things because they believe its the right thing to do, not because it's actually the right thing to do. No matter how hard we tap our keys will not make anyone any more right. You guys can clean your rifles to your hearts content for all I care, but when a retired competitive shooter (who is well known for 40+ years to Camp Perry, Bisley and Conought to name a few.) tells me he never cleaned his 22... well you can take it or leave it.
 
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