Click, Click, Click, Click, KA-BOOM!!!!

First, I'd like to point out that the comment about shakeyjake "Firing" a 7.62x54 in the 858 should never have crossed anyones mind, the round won't even fit in the magazine and shakeyjake said he ran the same rounds through.

shakeyjake, I know of a few cases that SOUND the same as this. The one that comes to mind boiled down to the guy had left the ammo (think 270/30-06) in his rifle mag in the glove compartment of his truck from the end of hunting season to the begining of hunting season. between Hot, Cold and bouncing around in the glove compartment, the rifle powder (Extruded) broke down to more like a pistol powder (ball/flake). this change the properties of the burn rate and KA-BOOM! So, if you have the other 4 rounds, open them up and open up a few other NEW rounds. Even if the powders look the same or close, try burning the powder from one OLD round and time it best you can, and burn the powder from new round and see how close the burn rate time is.

I don't know if this will help, but with any luck, it might
 
An improperly (high) seated primer comes to mind.
Ammunition can go through inspection and defects missed.
I found a .455 Dominion round in a box of 50.
The cartridge was properly head stamped, but the rim was not chamfered and twice as thick as normal.
 
mcpherson284 said:
shakeyjake, I know of a few cases that SOUND the same as this. The one that comes to mind boiled down to the guy had left the ammo (think 270/30-06) in his rifle mag in the glove compartment of his truck from the end of hunting season to the begining of hunting season. between Hot, Cold and bouncing around in the glove compartment, the rifle powder (Extruded) broke down to more like a pistol powder (ball/flake). this change the properties of the burn rate and KA-BOOM! So, if you have the other 4 rounds, open them up and open up a few other NEW rounds. Even if the powders look the same or close, try burning the powder from one OLD round and time it best you can, and burn the powder from new round and see how close the burn rate time is.
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This just doesn't happen. Rifle powder will not "break down" and change is properties to a fast burning pistol powder from rattling around in a glove box. People tumble loaded rounds without this internet phenomenon ever happening. And, you cannot tell the burn rate of a powder by watching 2 piles burn.
 
dimeN said:
did you have the gun tabbed ? if the tab is abit proud or has a rough surface it can hang just a tad and prevent from fully closing
it can be so many things... better to have a smith take a look
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"Tabbed"? I'm not sure what this means but no. I've had the rifle since new and have done zero mods. Anybody else leaning towards a filthy chamber? I know I shot it about a year ago after about 160 rounds and don't recall cleaning it. Actually I think it was May long on the Friday evening and brought the rifle home Monday. I should've tried taking more pics of the chamber before the Brakleen came out, or better yet, should have cleaned it before storing it.
Getting it to the smith tommorrow.
 
Canadian_Zuk said:
This just doesn't happen. Rifle powder will not "break down" and change is properties to a fast burning pistol powder from rattling around in a glove box. People tumble loaded rounds without this internet phenomenon ever happening. And, you cannot tell the burn rate of a powder by watching 2 piles burn.
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Some gun powders can break down over time, though, becoming unstable and causing danger of a blow-up if fired. Some years ago, the NRA put out a warning on one lot of WWII .30 caliber (.30-06) ammunition, a corrosive powder type, as I recall, that had been sold as surplus later to the tune of millions and millions of rounds. It seems that it was determined that the powder therein was chemically breaking down inside the cartridge case due to age, creating the possibility that it would detonate. While a cartridge's firing seems like an explosion, it's actually a very rapid burn, which sets up expanding gases that drive the projectile(s) down the gun barrel and toward the target. A true detonation creates an explosive event that blows up the gun.

The generally very informative Ammo Oracle at AR15.com has this to say:

The three primary killers of ammo are heat, moisture, and chemicals. Excessive heat will break down both the powder and the primer compound over time, causing erratic ignition and velocities.

Military guidance on how much heat is too much heat doesn’t offer much. Department of the Army Pamphlet 700–16, THE ARMY AMMUNITION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM for Logistics, does not list any temperatures, noting only that:

In general, ammunition must be protected from moisture and should be protected from temperature extremes when feasible.

As for watching two different piles of powder burn, not, you can't decide on burn rates, but, put something like Alliant 2400 in one pile and IMR 4350 in another, one will visually burn faster than the other. So, if the old powder from questionable year old ammo burns notably faster than new store bought hunting, surplus, ect.... it is a good indication that there is a problem.
 
dimeN said:
sorry bout that Jake... tabbing the gun is a remedy for the " gremlin " problem... some of the guns have a metal tab welded in
-like this pic on pg 4
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...o-get-rid-of-the-infamous-CZ-VZ-gremlin/page4

but that isn't the problem in your case

i'd suspect it was a lacquered up chamber ... but you are doin right to have it checked out properly
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"lacquered"? Here's another damn question. Is that the stuff corrosive ammo leaves behind? Aren't the cases coated in lacquer, the shiny smooth stuff around the cases?
Hopefully my smith has some time in the morning to take a look at the rifle right away and I can post some results. I'll toss some rounds in the truck because the range is on my way home.
Anybody have issues with this type of ammo? Since I've owned it it's been stored in a dry, cool place. Don't know it's past though.
 
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shakeyjake said:
"lacquered"? Here's another damn question. Is that the stuff corrosive ammo leaves behind? Aren't the cases coated in lacquer, the shiny smooth stuff around the cases?
Hopefully my smith has some time in the morning to take a look at the rifle right away and I can post some results. I'll toss some rounds in the truck because the range is on my way home.
Anybody have issues with this type of ammo? Since I've owned it it's been stored in a dry, cool place. Don't know it's past though.
Click to expand...


The cases are lacquer coated to keep the steel cases from rusting.

The priming compound in the primer is what makes the ammo "corrosive". The compound contains salts with are deposited in the bore/gas system/receiver when you shoot it. The salts attract moisture and the moisture can lead to rust.

I've shot over 15k of this ammo. If you clean your rifle properly you will not have any issues related to the ammunition.
 
shakeyjake said:
Must be dirty. I guess I'll have to take the Brakleen to the thing and get her all spotless.
If the mod is still around...Whats wrong with inserting a round into the chamber, by hand, and then letting the action slam home?
Thanks for the advice everybody. I was counting on this site and it has delivered as expected.
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Dropping a round in the chamber of a pistol or rifle and dropping slide or bolt is also bad for the extractor
 
mcpherson284 said:
. A true detonation creates an explosive event that blows up the gun.
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Smokeless powder cant detonate, only cause an explosion by bursting a container...not sure about black powder, I believe it can explode by shock so maybe it can detonate. The only way a cartridge could detonate is if someone sabotaged it with high explosive. This tactic actually gets used in war, most recently in Syria.
 
KNO3- said:
Smokeless powder cant detonate, only cause an explosion by bursting a container...not sure about black powder, I believe it can explode by shock so maybe it can detonate. The only way a cartridge could detonate is if someone sabotaged it with high explosive. This tactic actually gets used in war, most recently in Syria.
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You do realize those aren't my words, they are right from the US Military, NRA and a few other groups that did the research right?

As for powder detonating, when powder breaks down, both smokeless and black , it breaks into finer particles. The fine it becomes, the faster it burns. While a tumbler will not cause powder to break down like this if used for a short period of time, regular vibrations and extreme hot/cold can cause this (IE. left in a glove box for a year in areas where temperatures drop below zero on a regular basis and heating of the vehicle along with bumpy roads)
 
KNO3- said:
Smokeless powder cant detonate, only cause an explosion by bursting a container...not sure about black powder, I believe it can explode by shock so maybe it can detonate. The only way a cartridge could detonate is if someone sabotaged it with high explosive. This tactic actually gets used in war, most recently in Syria.
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yea, I recall a few bios about planting explosive rounds in the odd VC cashe. All of a sudden they're afraid to pull the trigger like me. Mcpherson284's post sort of makes about a faster burn rate. I've got a 1/2 full box of 30-40 Krag I was given by an old farmer a couple years ago that was behind the seat of his truck with it's gun for at least 30 years, says he bought a whole wack of it at an auction in the 1970s. We pulled the gun out and fired a few rounds and he gave me the rest of the box, old Dominion.
Smith took a look at the 858 and shell fragments and judging by the shell he and his old friend agreed it was oob fire and nothing to do with the ammo. The older fellas theroy was that by reinserting the same round over and over it kept getting slamed a little further into the chamber and eventualy went off about 1/4 inch ob. Does the 858 have some kind of pin block that slides away once it's in battery? I can't remember if I told him that I pulled the trigger and that it wasn't a slam fire though. He said it's good to go.
 
mcpherson284 said:
You do realize those aren't my words, they are right from the US Military, NRA and a few other groups that did the research right?

As for powder detonating, when powder breaks down, both smokeless and black , it breaks into finer particles. The fine it becomes, the faster it burns. While a tumbler will not cause powder to break down like this if used for a short period of time, regular vibrations and extreme hot/cold can cause this (IE. left in a glove box for a year in areas where temperatures drop below zero on a regular basis and heating of the vehicle along with bumpy roads)
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Well maybe there using the term "detonate" loosely/incorrectly. As it turns out smokeless powered can detonate but requires a high explosive shockwave of more than 7,300m/s to do it...so you would have to set it off with a blasting cap capable of that. Otherwise like I said it cannot detonate if simply ignited no mater how small the particles are. Same thing as C4, you can make a cooking fire with it and its perfectly safe...put it out and then still use whats left as an explosive my adding a blasting cap.

Black powder is a completely different animal and explodes in open air with as little as a static spark.
 
I suspect if you take the bolt apart you will find some rust in the hole I think what happened was you fired nothing happened the pin didn't hit with enough force just enough the dent the round then the pin got stuck forward and set it off. The primers can be dented by the firing pin by letting the pin go forward. Seems like an out of battery explosion over the magazine well that's why it peppered his hand. If a magazine was in the rifle that would of prevented injury but this is a good reason to wear safety glasses.

Take the bolt apart clean it out good put it back together then rattle it and see if it rattles around fine. (that's how you test a SKS as well) Just take it out rattle it if it doesn't make much noise clean it well. That gun could be very rusty inside and it needs a good cleaning since it sat for so long.

When I let firearms sit I take them out and inspect them from time to time and clean them if needed to prevent rust from building up. I also inspect them before taking them out shooting as well as things can happen in storage.
 
haha49 said:
I suspect if you take the bolt apart you will find some rust in the hole I think what happened was you fired nothing happened the pin didn't hit with enough force just enough the dent the round then the pin got stuck forward and set it off. The primers can be dented by the firing pin by letting the pin go forward. Seems like an out of battery explosion over the magazine well that's why it peppered his hand. If a magazine was in the rifle that would of prevented injury but this is a good reason to wear safety glasses.

Take the bolt apart clean it out good put it back together then rattle it and see if it rattles around fine. (that's how you test a SKS as well) Just take it out rattle it if it doesn't make much noise clean it well. That gun could be very rusty inside and it needs a good cleaning since it sat for so long.

When I let firearms sit I take them out and inspect them from time to time and clean them if needed to prevent rust from building up. I also inspect them before taking them out shooting as well as things can happen in storage.
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Wasn't a slam fire if that's what you're refering to. Guns been stripped of everything and cleaned up. I can hear the pin moving around when the bolt is shaken.
 
Please people lets understand what really happened here...
To understand what happened you have to first start off with how the government specifically removed a vital safety disconnector that the designer put in this rifle design to stop this from happening. Any one who has an CZ 858 in Canada or similar rifle that is not the nock off from USA. Please remove the bolt carrier and dust cover. There to the right of the extractor you will notice what will appear to be a weld mark. This is were the government forced it to be welded to make them fell better but in turn ensured that with a stickey bolt this rifle can slam fire or fire out of battery.
Here is a photo to help explain what I am trying to say.
This is what we should have minus the auto sear and sear spring leaf. But notice the safety disconnector going from the trigger assembly to the receiver:
dsc0007p.jpg

This is what the "elite" decided was safest for us to own:
P3111900.JPG

So now for all though's who want to shoot this rifle a simple but important safety procedure to due before shooting this version of this rifle if you have left it for some time.
It is to remove the bolt from the firearm and make sure it rattle's.
shakeyjake what type of fireing pin do you have? Is it 3 or 4 fin pin? To check this please remove the bolt and flash a light down the whole were the striker resides. Then count the fins and post back.
Stevo you and me had the first impression when reviewing this post. I to though that it was a stuck round in the chamber. But now I am leaning towards either a stickey bolt or the rear dust cover might not have been installed properly leading to a failure to close the chamber as it was getting hung up on something.
* Told you ;) You missed me :p *
 
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