COAL issues with Swedish Mausers

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saskminer

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I'm having a heck of a time understanding what is going on in my Swedish rifles.
I have an M38 that is measuring 3.323 COAL (method was cleaning rod to bolt face then cleaning rod to tip of bullet held at the lands). Subtracting a healthy 50 thousands is leaving me at 3.273 which is well over advertised COAL. I also don't get proper cartridge neck engagement.
I'm thinking my Nosler RDF bullets aren't helping due to their slim profile. I need to gain quite a bit of bullet length to properly engage the cartridge but doing that will give a huge bullet jump. Does anyone have any suggestions? Any brand of bullet? I was thinking of flat base soft points for this gun and a max length that still allows feeding.
 
From what I've read, most Swede's were built to handle M/94 ammo - 156 round nose bullets, and would have been throated accordingly. They did switch to pointy 140 grains in 1941 as official ammo, but all the rifle then existing were throated for the long round nose. I can not find if the throating was changed after 1941.
I did measure a couple rifles here. The standard magazine is 3.32" - ish, and apparently the standard military ammo was 3.15"-ish so they wanted about 0.17"-ish clearance in the magazine. I believe that is what you are up against - the bullets you have differ too much from what the rifle / magazine / throat were designed around. I have been using Sierra 140 Spitzer boat tail (#1730) and have not noticed an issue.
 
They have massive long throats designed for 160gr round nosed bullets. Seat the RDF so it has at least .264" of bullet shank inside the case neck. A large bullet jump to lands will not effect accuracy
 
FWIW even my modern action Tikka T3x has almost a .250 jump (with my 140 Hornady SST loads OAL set to 3.030) with no reduction in accuracy (IMHO). Sub MOA.

I have set the Hornady 160gr round nose to 3.000 - past the cannelure.

As has been said above - they have very long throats.

I loaded Nosler 140 Accubonds to 3.025
 
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Another thought - writings by John Barsness convinced me to try checking runout on my re-loads. I have come to believe that "straight" - i.e. less than .002" runout - is at least, if not more important, than worrying about exact bullet jump distance. I can see the difference on targets between .002 or less versus .005 or more, in most of the rifles that I have checked.
 
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I bet you have a 96/38, not a true 38 rifle.

The 96 had a really long throat, when they started making the 38 the only issued ammunition was the spitzer and the throat on the gun was shorter.

I have a 38 and it will not chamber the FMJ RN military loadings, they crash into the rifling.

What you need to know about swedish mausers is that they have long throats, you just have to deal with it. I am loading for mine and if loaded to the book COAL the groups are terrible, when I pushed the bullet out to match the magazine length and checked it in the chamber the groups tightened up a bunch. I ended up running into some pressure signs at lower than expected velocities but I was loading PPU brass and I know it is thick so starting all of this over again with Remington brass.

COAL in the books for 6.5x55mm is garbage, seat the bullet to fit the mag if you do not want to single feed or seat the bullet 1 bullet diameter into the neck and you should be fine, verify that you are at least off the lands as much as you want to be.
 
Fox said:
I bet you have a 96/38, not a true 38 rifle.

The 96 had a really long throat, when they started making the 38 the only issued ammunition was the spitzer and the throat on the gun was shorter.

I have a 38 and it will not chamber the FMJ RN military loadings, they crash into the rifling.

What you need to know about swedish mausers is that they have long throats, you just have to deal with it. I am loading for mine and if loaded to the book COAL the groups are terrible, when I pushed the bullet out to match the magazine length and checked it in the chamber the groups tightened up a bunch. I ended up running into some pressure signs at lower than expected velocities but I was loading PPU brass and I know it is thick so starting all of this over again with Remington brass.

COAL in the books for 6.5x55mm is garbage, seat the bullet to fit the mag if you do not want to single feed or seat the bullet 1 bullet diameter into the neck and you should be fine, verify that you are at least off the lands as much as you want to be.
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I do have an M96/38 in this instance. I am trying to get it sorted out so I can get groups smaller than 6" at 200 yards. I get some wild shots along with really dirty brass at the neck. I also have a true M96 from 1900 and an M38 from 1941. The M96 is 3.252 COAL. Both the M96 an M96/38 are from 1900 so there's definitely more wear in the M96/38. I thought I'd see a shorter distance to the lands on the M38 but it is actually longer that the other rifles (3.323). The M38 is in near mint condition so I have to suspect the jump distance is huge by design, the projectile profile is wrong or the barrel throat is eroded. I tried to find the bullet dimensions for period appropriate cartridges but can only find brass dimensions. I might cast the chambers just to see how things look in there if I get the time and ambition.
 
saskminer said:
I do have an M96/38 in this instance. I am trying to get it sorted out so I can get groups smaller than 6" at 200 yards. I get some wild shots along with really dirty brass at the neck. I also have a true M96 from 1900 and an M38 from 1941. The M96 is 3.252 COAL. Both the M96 an M96/38 are from 1900 so there's definitely more wear in the M96/38. I thought I'd see a shorter distance to the lands on the M38 but it is actually longer that the other rifles (3.323). The M38 is in near mint condition so I have to suspect the jump distance is huge by design, the projectile profile is wrong or the barrel throat is eroded. I tried to find the bullet dimensions for period appropriate cartridges but can only find brass dimensions. I might cast the chambers just to see how things look in there if I get the time and ambition.
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Consistently inconsistent eh
 
Fox said:
Consistently inconsistent eh
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I found some information on bullet protrusion at The House Of Karlina
23 MM for the new boat tail bullet
25 MM for the old round nose bullet

My '41 Husqvarna M38 is number 187 off the line (600187). I wonder if they were using old barrels for the first few rifles because it sure has a long throat for what looks like a pristine barrel.

I measured the RDF bullet and I will get around .300 neck seating if I use the old swede bullet projections. I will be well within the magazine so It's off to the reloading room to verify all this...
 
saskminer said:
I found some information on bullet protrusion at The House Of Karlina
23 MM for the new boat tail bullet
25 MM for the old round nose bullet

My '41 Husqvarna M38 is number 187 off the line (600187). I wonder if they were using old barrels for the first few rifles because it sure has a long throat for what looks like a pristine barrel.

I measured the RDF bullet and I will get around .300 neck seating if I use the old swede bullet projections. I will be well within the magazine so It's off to the reloading room to verify all this...
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I have no idea but a friend of mine has a 24in barrel rifle that had a straight bolt and chambers FMJ RN bullets from way back, so his has to be a 38/96 as the 38 had a bent bolt from the start, at least that is my understanding.

I got mine already with scope mounts on it, building a 400 year deer rifle out of it, keeping the full wood though, it is beautiful. The barrel was cut and crowned to remove the threaded bit but nothing else.

A very good shooting gun, I am just setting my length and playing with the load, the dang thing is so consistent, <40fps variation over 5rds from my loads, no matter the amount of powder in the range.
 
Fox said:
I have no idea but a friend of mine has a 24in barrel rifle that had a straight bolt and chambers FMJ RN bullets from way back, so his has to be a 38/96 as the 38 had a bent bolt from the start, at least that is my understanding.

I got mine already with scope mounts on it, building a 400 year deer rifle out of it, keeping the full wood though, it is beautiful. The barrel was cut and crowned to remove the threaded bit but nothing else.

A very good shooting gun, I am just setting my length and playing with the load, the dang thing is so consistent, <40fps variation over 5rds from my loads, no matter the amount of powder in the range.
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I put a scout rail from BadAce and a Vortex Crossfire scout scope on the M96/38 to make it a deer rifle. All the experimentation with COAL is in the name of shooting a deer at 200 to 300 yards. The scout setup is perfect for that and the rifle weight is light enough not to be a burden packing it around. I hope to obtain 1 MOA at 200 yards once all the reloading variables are worked out but I will settle for 2 MOA.
 
In case anyone is interested, I went to the range and attempted a 3 round group. Nosler RDF, 44 grains H4831, COAL 3.100
It was f***ing cold and hard to shoot but I got 1 MOA at 100 yards without trying real hard. The almost .200 bullet jump didn't bother the accuracy so I think it is going to be a deer slayer come hunting season.
Thanks to all for their comments!
 
Years ago, I had a sported Swede 38 with a dark bore - it had seen a few rounds. Tried various bullet and powder combinations, and was surprised to find that it shot very short 100 gr bullets into a cloverleaf at 100 y. The freebore was over a quarter of an inch...
 
So the Swedes have a bit of free bore, and a pile of guys get all twisted up because of it.
God forbid they try reloading for a Weatherby.........

1 caliber of bullet bearing surface contact in the case neck, and seat shorter if required..... how’s that for ya.

On another note try a square base bullet if your accuracy still suffers, KISS.
 
As stated above Weatherby rifles have long throats, a British .303 Enfield rifle will have cordite throat erosion and a long throat. My Savage .223 has a longer throat than my AR15 rifles as do many rifles designed by the company lawyers.

After I got out of the military in 1973 and bought my Rockchucker press all I had was a Hornady reloading manual and a green plastic Lyman vernier caliper. So being new to reloading I kept life simple and bought Hornady bullets with a cannelure and seated all my bullets to the middle of the cannelure. (problem solved)

Today I now have all sorts of gauges, neck turning tools, weight sort my cases etc. and to be truthful I don't think my reloads are any more accurate than they were in 1973.

I think too much of what benchrest shooters do with their custom tight chambered rifles filters down to us with our factory rifles and is not needed for hunting. Our ammunition needs to feed properly and shoot to where we point the rifle. So don't over think a problem you think you have and seating depth is just one method of tuning your load among many.
 
open
todbartell said:
RDF is not designed as a hunting bullet
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No the RDF is not a hunting bullet. It would be irresponsible to use the projectile against anything but paper. Transferring load information to the appropriate bullet is the next step towards converting this rifle into hunting.
I was never totally happy with how I was reloading for this gun as it was one of my first forays into reloading (now I have 2 years of mistakes under my belt). Early loads were erratic and I had all kinds of problems related to me and the methods I was using. I now spend a great deal of time researching and much less time staring at the mess I just made...
My loads are more accurate and I am starting to understand all the processes around reloading, including COAL and bullet jump. This is the first time I really tried for super accurate basically because I want to have a 6.5 MM deer gun and I wanted to prove out the old girl. My experience with the iron sights was that it had was pizza plate accuracy. I put a scout scope onto it and now it's very close to 1 MOA with ammo I made so I'm pretty stoked.
Any preferences on deer bullets?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15k1c96JPKICg3b-60lo2xWm886q_9r4g
 
saskminer said:
open


No the RDF is not a hunting bullet. It would be irresponsible to use the projectile against anything but paper. Transferring load information to the appropriate bullet is the next step towards converting this rifle into hunting.
I was never totally happy with how I was reloading for this gun as it was one of my first forays into reloading (now I have 2 years of mistakes under my belt). Early loads were erratic and I had all kinds of problems related to me and the methods I was using. I now spend a great deal of time researching and much less time staring at the mess I just made...
My loads are more accurate and I am starting to understand all the processes around reloading, including COAL and bullet jump. This is the first time I really tried for super accurate basically because I want to have a 6.5 MM deer gun and I wanted to prove out the old girl. My experience with the iron sights was that it had was pizza plate accuracy. I put a scout scope onto it and now it's very close to 1 MOA with ammo I made so I'm pretty stoked.
Any preferences on deer bullets?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15k1c96JPKICg3b-60lo2xWm886q_9r4g
Click to expand...

You need to build your load up the same, do not just transfer, the thickness of the jacket is different, the bearing surface is different, they are all different.

I am loading the 143gr ELD-X, MOA is what I am going for, 1in at 100, 2in at 200, 4in at 400 makes for a great 400 deer rifle, although the groups will need to be verified at the longer ranges.
I was going to say, 2MOA is a big group for a swede.
 
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