Cold weather load development

[H4831]

Yes, vviking, you are right. It was too long since I read the original posting and was going more by some of the replies.
One thing though, I think a lot of ignition problems in cold weather can be attributed to oils around the firing pin allowing too weak a hit to fire the primer, or barely igniting the powder.
I've had my FN Mauser action fail completely, in cold weather that was by no means severe. After the kerosene treatment it worked as good as it did in warm weather.
Also, a lot of years ago there was the report of an extensive test done on primers. The report was in some type of annual firearms book, but I can no longer find the book.
Anyway, they did a lab test to measure the strength of various primers, when fired in a device that allowed for three different weight strikes on each primer. That is, each type of primer was given a very hard hit, a normal hit and a weak hit. This test proved that the strength of the firing pin hitting the primer has a great deal to do with the strength of the primer.
Their bottom line was that a regular primer hit hard had more fire power than a magnum primer with a weak hit.
Thus, I often wonder if some of the poor shooting and poor ignition problems in the cold, doesn't come from a weak hit, due to some congealed oil slowing the firing pin, rather than the powder not igniting properly because of the cold.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the large capacity Weatherby magnums were on the market and were hand loaded extensively with H4831, powder for about fifteen years before magnum primers came on the market. I never read, or heard a thing of any ignition problems anywhere with Weatherby magnums and the rifles soon became very popular in Alaska.

 

[358Rooster]

How is the progress going Rooster? Btw, heat is a shack for shooting isn't all that great, when the window is open for shooting, the heat waves interfere with your sight picture a lot. However at least you are out of the wind and snow.

I haven't been shooting lately for a number of reasons, I hope to remedy that in the new year. I have a few "new to me" rifles that need to have loads worked up for them. Including a sweet mauser from Why Not? !! Thanks again Ted, it's a real treasure!!

I am going to attempt to find another Oehler 35 so I can chrony my loads more consistently, I like the large window it has versus the tiny little thing on the others... Then I will be using the loads at temps from +20 to -40C and see for myself exactly what happens. Not that it really matters to me as in the winter my game shooting is usually well under 300 yards and more often than not under 200. This year I will be hunting coyotes and wolves within 1/2 me of my house as we now have more of them than deer for some reason. I better get off my arse and hunt down that 22 cal I have been talking about. Lol.

I should be back on my feet soon enough to get out for some hunting that isn't too strenuous, how is the leg doing?



Regards, Bill

Hey Cleftwnd! Unfortunately, the dang wind was howling again this weekend, so I didn't get to test out the .284. I have no sides or top on my deck and the wind coming over the top of the knoll that the deck is on makes things pretty unbearable past -10. Hoping to at least get it closed in next summer - don't know about the heat tho. Maybe just a bit o' propane to warm the fingers every now & then.

Instead, I had a daddy / daughter day of redneck 'drive 'til you see a coyote, get out, blaze away, giggle like a 13 year old girl at a Justin Beeber concert, and head to grandma & grandpa's house for hot chocolate' kind of day. While not terribly productive, it sure was good getting out with my girl.

Leg's doing alright. I actually got down into a modified sitting position when we checked our zeroes yesterday morning. Not my best "locked" effort but it should prove relatively effective if I get out for coyotes soon. Therapist says anywhere from six to twelve months for full recovery to sports condition. Not ready to be the old fart on the side yet!

 

[Magnum_Tom]

I think we all would agree at "normal" hunting ranges, the effects are negligible. I believe this is why, as stated initially, that I never really noticed any negative effects of cold weather use of warm weather loads. Personally, I have never killed any game beyond 274 yards and most of my killing seems to happen well inside 200. This is where I like it to happen, as I believe this is hunting. Any bloke can shoot at something well beyond that, given the right training & equipment but I prefer to get in the critters' kitchen. Sure, I've taken the odd "pot shot" at a coyote way the hell out there, as we all have, I'm sure, but what I was looking for was real world experience with the cold weather long shots (my idea being 600 & beyond). I have no interest in shooting at living things past 300 yards or so but given the amount of reading I've done recently about long range hunting, long range shooting, ballistics programs/tables/coefficients/wind meters/underwear/must have reticles/suggestions of which side of your mouth to hang your tongue out of and other assorted voodoo ad nauseum, I want to sort out the BS, propaganda, and armchair sniper from reality, as I am interested in making hits on static, non-living targets beyond my normal hunting ranges. I know very well that with my abilities and my equipment that the only true way to find out what will happen is for me to get out there and experiment and document. I just figured that with a resource such as this forum, why couldn't a guy learn from members who have already done the hard "lessons learned", tip the hat with a "thank you for sharing, sir", and fine tune from there? I believe I found it - thank you all.

Of all the 15 or so years I have been handloading, I would say that 90% of what I know (or think I know) has come from reading and trial & error. Lemme tell ya - there's been lots of error, as I'm sure most of you have already encountered. I have not had any reloading mentors over the years. I have not shot with anyone better than me. I realize that this sounds arrogant but what I mean is that I come from an area of hunters and while there are better hunters than me, I've not spent time with anyone that shoots for precision at beyond typical hunting ranges. You know that cocked-head look you get from a dog with his ears pricked up when you let out a high pitched squeak? Yeah, that's the look I get around home when I say that I want to shoot 1000 yards. "Whut the hell fer?" "Jeebus boy, you ain't doin' it right iffun ya gotsta shoot that far!" I very much treasure hunting as therapy, tradition, and a way of passing on things that are sure to be lost with future generations if not nurtured by people of an experienced generation. However, aside from that, I want to take it to the next level of being able to shoot accurately and repeatably in any and all conditions. This is why I started this thread.

Cheers fellas!
Rooster

What a truly inspired post.

 

[Dogleg]

I never read, or heard a thing of any ignition problems anywhere with Weatherby magnums and the rifles soon became very popular in Alaska.

The 215 primer was developed because of misfire problems in the .378 Weatherby. Federal also makes a hotter primer called the 216 that they use in their line of Nitro Express ammo.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

The 215 primer was developed because of misfire problems in the .378 Weatherby. Federal also makes a hotter primer called the 216 that they use in their line of Nitro Express ammo.

In your estimation, would you say the need for a hotter primer is because of the volume and perhaps burn rate of the powder, it was found with that because that set of circumstances requires it? The reason I ask is I 'believe' that was the cause and effect of certain loads in the 500 S&W handgun cartridge, when using a slower burning powder like H110. From my own experience and with some of the original brass made to take large pistol primers, with heavy loads of H110, there would be the odd round that would leave behind a considerable amount of unburnt powder. Magnum large pistol primers didn't really help either. I 'believe' at that time, Starline was first in bringing out brass made to accept large rifle primers to deal with that issue. As I understand it now, all or almost all 500 brass is made for large rifle primers. The earlier brass I still have I now use for reduced loads using powders like Unique.

 

[Dogleg]

I'd say volume,composition, grain size, coatings and ambient temperature all play a part. So does pressure.

The worst case I had for igntion was with my first .338 Edge. Fireing at temperatures at or around -40 gave half misfires with CCI Magnum primers and none with 215Ms. Many of the misfires had the primer fireing but not the powder charge. The 90+ grain charges of H1000 would be scorched yellow and welded together into a mass that had to be scratched out of the case with a nail.

If primer heat didn't matter there wouldn't be both large and small rifle primers, never mind regular and magnum.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

I'd say volume,composition, grain size, coatings and ambient temperature all play a part. So does pressure.

The worst case I had for igntion was with my first .338 Edge. Fireing at temperatures at or around -40 gave half misfires with CCI Magnum primers and none with 215Ms. Many of the misfires had the primer fireing but not the powder charge. The 90+ grain charges of H1000 would be scorched yellow and welded together into a mass that had to be scratched out of the case with a nail.

If primer heat didn't matter there wouldn't be both large and small rifle primers, never mind regular and magnum.

Some of the early on difficulties I mentioned with unburnt powder showed similar results to the powder mass you've described. Not quite to that degree of the 'mass' you've experienced but similar.

-40 degree temperatures is something I've never had to deal with. -10 F may have been the worst and even that was on very rare occasion. And, with what little shooting I've done under those conditions, any significant difference in performance compared to what I've experienced in warmer situations has been almost nil/noticeable.

Thanks for relating your experiences and opinions.

 

[Dogleg]

Varget was the first powder that I'm aware of that was billed as "temperature insensitive". They must meant room temperature and up, because in my 30-06s there is a difference of 100 fps or more between freezeing and -20C, and another 50 at T-shirt weather. I needed a load with an Australian powder to use in hot weather, but it was an eye opener to see 165 grain loads struggle for 2700 fps. RL22 and 19 were worse, and H4350 wasn't much better.

The custom loader I was useing in Australia and I talked a bit about temperature sensitivity of ADI 2208 (Varget), he commented that he had never seen pressure spikes at high temps which is probably what they were going for. Safety rates higher than some crazy Canuck's drop chart.

I've had too many ball powder loads go sour in the cold to spend more time on them on general purpose ammo. H380 was bad enough that my carefully worked up 22/250 loads had to be abandonned for coyote calling. IMR4895 and H4895 didn't have any issues with lieing in the snow. I still like balls for gophers, plinking and warm weather hunting but thats mostly for the ease of dropping charges.

H1000 is one my enthusiasms, it seems to laugh at temperature changes.

 

[H4831]

what ranges were the old timers shooting at.

1 mill @ 100 m is still a kill, not so much @ 3 or 400m but can fix this you just need to know what your bullet will do. that's all so I agree you just have to get out and shoot.

Most of them were good hunters so most shots would not be at excessive distance. But not all.
Long after the time all this hunting was over, I met an old friend who had been a neighbor long ago. We were soon reminiscing about the old times and he told me the following story.
He had a haystack on another quarter section from where he lived and in the dead of winter he took the team and sleigh to get a load of hay from the stack. He got a load on the hay rack on the sleigh and climbed on top to drive home. About 25 yards from the end of the field saw a moose in the willows. He knew his haystack was 300 yards from the end of the field and the moose was about 25 yards farther. So he lay on the load of hay with his Winchester 32 Special, guessed how much it would drop, took careful aim and killed the moose with one shot.
When I was a boy on the homestead, I remember one cold winter day my brother coming home to get the horses to bring home a moose. He had climbed a tree and spotted a moose in a willow patch. He killed the moose with his 30-06 and the distance from tree to moose turned out to be 440 yards, an even quarter mile.
He was an excellent hunter and good shot, could estimate distance very close, as could all homestead farmers and he knew his rifle capabilities very well.
The point I was making was if the rifle actions were thoroughly cleaned of oil and all homesteaders cleaned them thoroughly with kerosene, the factory loaded ammo just went bang and almost always, killed the game they were aimed at.

 

[vviking]

Thanks H4831, that was another good post ^.
As were the prior comments about the varying of firing pin strikes vs. primer brissance. Had plumb forgotten about that well researched article from the dim past, ... way back when, when gun mags were the only way to learn new stuff, other than trying things for yourself, or prying it out of the savvy oldtimers. That is, If, you ever could persuade those 'all knowing ones' to divulge their secrets to a wet behind the ears, precocious, young whippersnapper. The thirst for knowledge was more difficult to slake before the intraweb came on scene.

Been running a dry lubed bolt interior in the cold months for so long now, that the info source as to why we should be doing that had faded ... until your nudge.

There is much to be said for intimacy with just the one rifle, the knowing inside and out of one good gun.

 

[Big Game]

Been running a dry lubed bolt interior in the cold months for so long now, that the info source as to why we should be doing that had faded ... until your nudge.

I learned a hard lesson on this one fall in Northern Alberta. Belly crawled through the snow for 45 minutes to get within range of one of the biggest mule deer bucks I'd ever seen. When the moment of truth arrived my firing pin was frozen so badly the gun wouldn't fire. I prefer using (or was scared into) dry lube on my bolts all the time.
This has been a very interesting and informative dialogue for someone like me who's new to reloading. Although I'm not looking for precision loads, I am looking to load and test some rifles this winter so this gives me some food for thought.

 

[vviking]

"This has been a very interesting and informative dialogue"

Yes it has BG.

May you never freeze a pin again (unlikely, after that Monster Muley Misfire, eh?)

Handloading never seems to lose its lustre, or get stale. After 41 years in, there is still so much more to learn. The guns, they keep on shooting better and better.

Enjoy.

 

[Neilm]

I too used to think that variations due to temperature were rather insignificant. I had a beutiful 257 bob That shot 1/2' regularily with IMR 4350 and 100 gr Rem spcl's. The load was worked up in summer bur not cro'd until the temp has about -10. Velocity was just over 3000. A friend made two 440 +- yard shots on a couple of caribou so it went to him with conditions. We croy'd it again at abou =20 and ir was over 3100. We went out on a hot day +30 and ammo had been laying in the back window and it was over3200fps.That got me thinking a lot If velocity is higher then pressure must be a lot higher. If you have a rifle that has a sweet spot that spot is out the window. Some rifles change point of impact by a fair margin as you vary the powder charge working up loads so your zero could be way off and certainly you down range ballistics would be way off even if the zero was still on.
When reloading now I try to use extreme powders that do not change apperciably. I try to work up a load in spring and fall when it is neither hot or cold. I do noy load the absolute max because I might be shooting on a hot day. I took my 300RUM to Africa loaded with 200gr accubonds at 3100. Not a max load but a healthy one and it performed fine at + 30 as did a 25=06.
I like a rifle that has the same point of impact with different charges of powder. Some do this very well and others the POI may change 1" with a change of 1 gr powder. These usually go down the road.
I still have a few that print a tight group with different bullet weights and powder charges and the are keepers.
Al these are my observations and yoy have the right to disagree with them.
Neil

 

[Dogleg]

I like to see a load that has about a 3 grain window where it will shoot to the same 100 yard POI and with similar accuracy. Loads like that don't go sour when the sun goes behind a cloud, or you start on another lot of powder, or you say screw weighing charges. Those loads that seem a little hotter in the summer than they did last winter? Back off a grain, re-sight, shrug and keep going.

 

[358Rooster]

I like to see a load that has about a 3 grain window where it will shoot to the same 100 yard POI and with similar accuracy. Loads like that don't go sour when the sun goes behind a cloud, or you start on another lot of powder, or you say screw weighing charges. Those loads that seem a little hotter in the summer than they did last winter? Back off a grain, re-sight, shrug and keep going.

A 3 grain window shooting to the same POI? What constitutes same POI for you? Just realized this sounds snitty but it's not - I'm genuinely curious. Reason being, I've never experienced a 3 grain spread that came into the same inch or so at 100. I know this may seem like splitting hairs, as lots of guys are happy with 2" or larger clusters in hunting rifles. Is that your criteria?

I can't get it out of my head that you'd need a big stinking cartridge to facilitate a same POI with that much variance. I may very well be flawed in my thinking. It's been a long time since I've done any testing at 100 yards and don't recall any larger "range" of charges shot to be acceptable to me. Maybe up to about two grains in an '06-cased cartridge - but that's just speculation of memory.

On a bit of a different note, I did finally get out to shoot the other day. Finally wrung out my .284 and also tried out another round of .243 test loads. Unfortunately, the feminine undergarments still had a firm enough grip that I didn't take the chronograph into the cold. The .284 took two rounds to get on steel at 500 and the rest was just giggles. Wishing now that I had taken the chrony. Oh well, another day.

By the way Dogleg, saw your Cheytac thread. Very, very nice sir!

Rooster

 

[Dogleg]

The majority of cartridges that I shoot take 70 grains and up, with the Cheytac being the top powder glutton.
A cartridge and load that I use a lot is the 300 Win, 180 grain and H1000. Typically book maxes are 81 grains, and in the 4 rifles 79 through 81 will shoot well and to the same 100 zero. Obviously they aren't going to stay together at 800. I call that a 3 grain range because it is 3 different charges, another guy would notice that 81 is 2 grains more than 79, and still another would phrase it that 80 grains plus or minus a grain is bound to be consistent.