Colion Noir : The Shotgun Is Back — And It’s Closer to the AR Than Ever
- Thread starter 762mm
- Start date
Painkillers
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
He's little more than a marketing wh0re these days. A shotgun as a "fighting gun" has got to be a laughable statement to anyone who's actually seen combat. It's no accident that our government is still comfortable with it's citizenry owning shotguns...they're useless when put up against those who are picking your a$$ off at 300+ yards.
Shotguns are great for ducks and deer...or clays, but by making one a bullpup or an AR doesn't magically make it a "fighting gun".
Shotguns are great for ducks and deer...or clays, but by making one a bullpup or an AR doesn't magically make it a "fighting gun".
I don't know, I mean if I were fighting in Ukraine right now, I don't think I would necessarily turn down a shotgun given the huge FPV drone threat and the close quarters nature of most of the infantry engagements there.
In civilian self defense context they're still not a bad choice either.
Painkillers
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I don't know. If the 12 gauge is chambered for drone defence (Tungsten), that's certainly an additional use to be added to ducks, deer and clays, but if relegated to just one tool for combat, I would think a patrol carbine (fa capable) would be the tool for the job for most.
I've never been in actual combat. Anyone who has who has a different opinion I'd take a long listen to.
Drones are changing modern warfare faster than anyone wants to admit — but this one 5.56 round flips that whole equation.
Trench guns and shotguns were a real thing in WWI / WWII / Korea / Vietnam. In WWI the Germans even complained about them being "unfair" in close quarters engagements vs. rifles. Too devastating, apparently.
The Remy 870 and Mossberg 590 are still standard issue for both the American military and police. Very effective in ALL close quarters situations. I once knew an old school police shooting instructor who had more respect for a pump 12GA than he did for a submachine gun or even an AK, and this guy has seen some serious action. He said he'd pick the 12GA pump over any other firearm for anything a street cop may ever face. He did not trust semi 12GA, as they had a tendency to "jam" when the weather was really cold.
The guy has apparently taken out quite a few "bad guys" in his career - some with his trusted 12GA - and seemed to know what he was talking about. He reminded me of Lee Marvin (the actor) : same tough old school demeanor, speech and even looks. He passed away a while back (RIP)
Lest we forget, gangbangers aren't snipers and the typical "self-defense" engagement is not at 300 yards. It's usually the distance (length) of your living room or the average suburban back yard. The good'ole 12GA has got you covered!
.
Last edited:
Painkillers
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Flack battery coming from one mag about sums this up.
30 rds of these rounds is > 8 rds of 12 gauge anything.
Painkillers
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Hmmm, okay but we were discussing combat. Bully cops or defending yourself from tweekers or burglars aside I think you'll acknowledge that a trench raid, or pop up engagements occurring sometimes in the Ukrainian conflict are exceptions to the rule?
We can talk and talk, but until an actual war fighter opines it's all armchair QB stuff.
Out of a company, how many men patrol an area armed with shotguns? Not guys who are charged with seeking and kidnapping a wanted bad guy (breaching loads are useful for getting through a locked door), just guys who are patrolling to keep the unwanted away from a perimeter/area. Idk, but I'll bet none. Most likely all but one or two will be carrying patrol carbines. The other one or two will be carrying light machine guns (belt fed .308 or 5.56) for suppression if they come into contact.
In Iraq, we (British Army) all carried standard issue SA80 (5.56 NATO) assault rifles on patrol. A few guys had underslung grenade launchers, a few guys had GPMGs (7.62 belt fed general purpose machine gun), and most of us had grenades.
No shotguns, but we also weren't kicking in doors on counter-IDF patrols.
I can't speak for the Americans though.
We had shotguns in Afghanistan (Remington 870 IIRC). One per section. Not a primary weapon that someone carried daily mind you, just something in the inventory like a Carl Gustaf. Idea was for dealing with dogs etc on foot patrols rather than breaching, as no two houses were built the same. Others may have different experiences, but that's what the sappers were doing on my rotations.
Same
We had the 870 LEO folder that someone carried for the same reason you mentionned: pest control, breeching doors and escorting the #### truck guy at the platoon house.
There are plenty of videos online about the training and use of the 12GA scatter gun in the US military.
Obviously, the shotgun does have a purpose and soldiers are required to qualify with it. Not only for breaching doors or shooting dogs, but against enemy (human) targets :
Obviously, the shotgun does have a purpose and soldiers are required to qualify with it. Not only for breaching doors or shooting dogs, but against enemy (human) targets :
U.S. Military Firing Shotguns • M1014 JSCS & Mossberg 500
Marines Combat Marksmanship Training • Shotguns and Rifles
Shotgun is more like Americans thing, part of their tool box. Come from Asian military, we actually never heard or held one. I start to like it more and more when came here like 25 years ago, Lol. It's just so versatile and Hollywood make thing goes boom with buckshot, Lol. Hahaha.
Of course, I would pick AR15 with spare upper for any scenario but still take my old trusted 870 or 590a1 with me.
Of course, I would pick AR15 with spare upper for any scenario but still take my old trusted 870 or 590a1 with me.
Drones account for no less than 70% of casualties in Ukraine, and along most of the frontline, the opposing troops are normally well put of small arms range of each other, separated by a vast drone swept no man's land.
It's only in complex terrain or in situations where troops have managed to get through the drone screen, usually either by infiltration or a motorized dash, do you have infantry on infantry engagements anymore.
In that context the shotgun wouldn't be bad even as a primary weapon, provided you could be reliably resupplied with shotshells.
It's only in complex terrain or in situations where troops have managed to get through the drone screen, usually either by infiltration or a motorized dash, do you have infantry on infantry engagements anymore.
In that context the shotgun wouldn't be bad even as a primary weapon, provided you could be reliably resupplied with shotshells.
