Collecting and shooting antiques

mooncoon

mooncoon

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The Halloween thread amongst others has prompted me to start this thread. Some of the early things that Lucky has said was that he wanted to collect older guns, apparently prescribed antiques and second that he was confused by the laws. Every so often someone posts a query about how to make shells for some obsolete and non commercial caliber.
It seems to me that if a person owns one old gun inherited from an ancestor, then relying on advice from the group might be more or less adequate but if a person wants to collect, display, import and or use prescribed antiques they need to make an effort to both know and understand the laws including definitions and further they need to acquire and be familiar with at least some of the references which are readily available out there. The more public the guns are, the greater the odds of being asked why is that gun not registered and then asked to prove it. The owner needs to be able to quote a published reference for dates of manufacture and keep a copy of cc84 1 a and b handy plus SOR 98-464. Expecting police to be familiar with guns and particularly with antique gun and with firearm laws is unrealistic and guarantees a lot of hassles. Bottom line is that the potential owner needs to do their homework not just go out and buy something that looks old.
When it comes to shooting the guns, a common comment is along the lines of "I can poke a remchester shell in the chamber so it must be one of those". Recognize that antique chambers and barrels are commonly of nonstandard dimensions. You need to take a chamber cast with either cerrosafe or paraffin and measure it accurately with a micrometer or similar. You need to measure the bore accurately by slugging it and measuring with a micrometer. You should not be surprised to find differences of several thousandths of an inch from the stated dimensions. Books like Cartridges of the World or A Handloaders Guide to Cartridge Conversions will often accurately identify the cartridge which fits the chamber or which can be modified to fit the chamber.
Enough of a rant for the moment, I shall get my marshmellows out for the flames to come :>) :>)

cheers mooncoon
 
Doug,

I agree with what you say about antique owners keeping a low profile. I love the fact that we can own revolvers and rifles that don't require paper work. It is almost like we are doing something naughty. I have difficulty interpreting the legalese of the regs. A rough guide for me is, manufactured before 1898 and not a caliber commercially available. I am not an experienced reloader but I have noticed a few errors in Cartridges of the World. Another place to find cartridge information is, http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/heads.htm

Cheers
Kevin
 
Great idea for a thread, mooncoon!
I've recently obtained several antique muzzleloaders that I've been shooting and I'm working on getting a couple of old BPC guns back into the game. The group here at CGN has been great about answering several questions I've posted on the subject, thanks to all. The internet has been a wealth of info for learning the ropes and ironing out the legalities of antique gun ownership. The information is out there, all you have to do is look for it, but remember you will also find quite a bit of mis-information, so cross reference, use your head, check your sources and ask others who have more experiences.
Above all, use common sense when handeling and shooting these old guns and it can be a very rewarding sport.
 
Steppenwolf said:
I have difficulty interpreting the legalese of the regs. A rough guide for me is, manufactured before 1898 and not a caliber commercially available. I am not an experienced reloader but I have noticed a few errors in Cartridges of the World.
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I think the "not available" only works for antique shotguns and handguns sort of. For rifles a better guide would be big and single shot

It is not just Cart of the World that has errors; check out the base diameter of a 30-30 in almost all reloading manuals; it should be around .418" not the .425" which is think is the published number. Ultimately it comes back to measure accurately; don't just poke it in and rattle it around sort of :>)

There are relatively few shells that cannot be formed from some commercially available shell, with the exception of some of the really long european ones and the heavy buffalo cartridges. About the only one I can think of that is probably beyond loading or reloading is the Moore teat fire. That one completely escapes me how to make it in a reloadable form

cheers mooncoon
 
It does ones soul good to know there are other people as devoted to antiques and the nostalgic feeling one gets from shooting a rare old pistol that may not have been fired in 100 years . the imagination goes back in time and you can say so thats what it was like to shoot one of those . shooting my muzzel loading howda pistol 64cal a boom and a big flash and cloud of smoke did I hit the lion no the coffee can is still on the fence O well better try a load of shot next then maybe I'll get it . And we must love what we collect because who else would put the time and effort in reloading these antique and obsolete cartridges.And the cost molds brass sizing dies custom reloading dies not to mention the price of the gun for me it's tens of thousands invested in a WAY OF LIFE
 
Thanks Mooncoon, I finally read the "Halloween" thread, so I understand you better. I originally read the title of that thread and thought to myself "don't waste you time" and I was right.

We are very lucky to have guys like Dingus, Nessy, tiriaq, Andy and yourself as members of the CGN family.

Cheers
Kevin

mooncoon said:
I think the "not available" only works for antique shotguns and handguns sort of. For rifles a better guide would be big and single shot

It is not just Cart of the World that has errors; check out the base diameter of a 30-30 in almost all reloading manuals; it should be around .418" not the .425" which is think is the published number. Ultimately it comes back to measure accurately; don't just poke it in and rattle it around sort of :>)

There are relatively few shells that cannot be formed from some commercially available shell, with the exception of some of the really long european ones and the heavy buffalo cartridges. About the only one I can think of that is probably beyond loading or reloading is the Moore teat fire. That one completely escapes me how to make it in a reloadable form

cheers mooncoon
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Its great that this thread was started...there seems to be a few too many questions asked that could be answered with a little more research. It seems to me that there are a few too many people out there that want to use the antique status as an excuse to basically do what ever they want with a handgun (carrying in public, hunting, carrying in the car sitting on the seat next to them, ect). Not only can these things get that person in big trouble they also draw attention to the antique collecting world and when you draw attention to something you always get the people who want to shut it down. You'ld think that the time and money needed to own one of these guns would put the idiots off but im amaized at some of the things ive heard the past few months...granted some questions asked on this forum are folks legitimately looking for clarifications on the laws but some are just trying to bend the rules as far as they can. Dingus and Mooncoon have said it best in the past...keep a low profile, dont draw un-wanted attention. The longer we go without drawing the attention of the anti-gun folks and the politicians the longer we can enjoy our antiques without having to jump through hoops.

Just my 2 cents...
 
keep a low profile, dont draw un-wanted attention. The longer we go without drawing the attention of the anti-gun folks and the politicians the longer we can enjoy our antiques without having to jump through hoops.
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Well this makes me breathe way easier!
 
Those who do not see the need for discretion and a very high standard of responsibility do not realize that politicians are more than willing to change the laws if enough people start yelling. Unfortunately, the total number of Canadians who pee their pants at the mere mention of a gun far outnumber (by a few orders of magnitude) the total number of Canadians who enjoy collecting antique handguns. If the two groups start hollering, guess which group will sound the loudest to the politicians? Think about that for a few moments. Those of us who like antique firearms need to set a high standard of responsibility and discretion because if we get into a yelling contest against urban Canada, the politicians are going to have a very hard time hearing us in the uproar.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Those of us who like antique firearms need to set a high standard of responsibility and discretion because if we get into a yelling contest against urban Canada, the politicians are going to have a very hard time hearing us in the uproar.
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Agreed!
 
I also agree with Win 38-55.
Mooncoon has started a very good thread, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on antiques. I keep a copy of the fact sheet in my gun room. You can get this on the Canadian firearms site cfc-cafc.gc.ca This out lines what is a antique and the law for antiques.
The ready avaiable ammo was something the Ontario goverment had in place for antique guns before the new laws came out and was a farce. In the fact sheets it names the ammo that takes the antquie status away so they are a good thing to keep around and understand.
Know with all this said I picked up a new Remington rolling block (made in 2000) in 45 70 that has a letter from the goverment that states it as a antique so I am confused
I would recommend getting the fact sheet for a base line anyway on antiques.
John
 
WR1894 said:
I picked up a new Remington rolling block (made in 2000) in 45 70 that has a letter from the goverment that states it as a antique so I am confused
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If that single shot was made in 2000, then someone at CFC messed up. Everything about your rifle is 'antique' except for the year of manufacture. The CFC person must have missed the part about it being made in 2000.
 
CFC confusion

We assume the if a person works for the CFC they should have a reasonable knowledge of the goofy laws they operate under. In fact the should be their reason for existance. However, An acquaintence was trying to register a second generation Navy Colt (made in the 20th century) and the CFC rep was insisting that it did not need to be registered and he was insisting it did. So picture, if you will this trip to our very own version of Absurdistan. It's not just the customs agents at the border that have a spectacular level of ignorace when it comes to the firearms law.

I agree that those of us who own antiques do need to set a high standard of responsibility. But we also need to remember that the anties will never be satisfied, we are all gun owners and just because at the moment we are safe we should not for a moment believe that somehow we are immune to the irrational whims of the anties. I find that brining antique pistols to reenactments and having them on me is a good conversation starter with the general public and it also is a way to give someone who might be ambivalent or even afraid a chance to get a bit more information. We tend to fear what we don't understand.
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
I find that brining antique pistols to reenactments and having them on me is a good conversation starter with the general public and it also is a way to give someone who might be ambivalent or even afraid a chance to get a bit more information. We tend to fear what we don't understand.
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Reenactments and educational lectures are excellent and highly appropriate places to bring an antique firearm. I've seen both. The local home-schoolers association brought in a re-enactor who gave a magnificent lecture, dressed in period costume complete with genuine antique rifle. The kids and parents drank in every word, then flocked to the front to get a hands-on experience of the stuff he brought. It did a great deal to stimulate interest and a positive attitude toward antique firearms. It's stuff like that that we should promote and encourage .... educational stuff that spark interest and appreciation, as well as dispel phobias. I make a point, when we have guests in our home to show them some of my antique sixguns and tell them the history behind the gun. They always find it fascinating.
 
oldiron said:
Didn't the rules at one time state "when you load an antique gun it's no longer considered an antique"?
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Go to the government web site and look at the regulations for antiques. If you own antiques print this off and keep it with them when you travel etc. I have heard of when you load it it is not considered an antique but it is not law . an antique is an antique loaded or not. www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca I hope I got the web site right.It's under fact sheets
 
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The huge need for discretion and very high standard of responsibility is a detail that should be learned and practiced by everyone involved with or just getting into the world of antique firearms. Someone should sticky this thread so that any newcomers can be "educated" as to what antique status means (aside from the legislative req'ts)... its about collecting, preserving and using pieces of 130 year old engineering history. These are items that played a huge role in the "development" of north america. The laws allow us to collect them and use them without too many restrictions...with that they demand a higher responsibility than owning any other class of firearm IMHO... People need to be well educated in what can be done with them and where to draw the line...Keep a low profile and for god's sake...dont push things and ruin it for everyone!

just my rant.
 
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