Collet vs full length "partial" resizing re. working the neck twice vs once

[emerson]

I searched, holy mother, lots of strong words! For simplicity let's keep this about the brass; accuracy seems hotly debated, but mine is practice/hunting ammo, not competition. In the interest of clarity I'll describe what I think is happening and then... So partial f/l sizing (bumping the shoulder) sizes the neck down and expands it out again, while putting the shoulder back into spec for YOUR RIFLE'S CHAMBER ONLY if you adjust it down little by little until it just chambers without "undue" force. Collet neck sizing squeezes the neck down on a mandrel working it once per reloading cycle. I understand the desire to avoid sizing the brass to min spec and then stretching it back to the length of your rifle's chamber every time it's fired. Case head separation is the most common brass failure, so avoiding it makes sense. The only thing collet avoids vs "shoulder bumping" is working the neck a bit more, does that affect how often annealing is required to maintain neck tension? Even with lubed brass my f/l dies "pull" pretty hard when withdrawing the expander, but of course chamber pressures are much stronger. In conclusion, for longest brass life, collet sizing until the brass is too tight while chambering, then minimum partial f/l sizing to your rifle's chamber, then repeat the cycle. Have I described this correctly?

 

[Keithjohn]

Works for me

 

[bigedp51]

My favourite full length resizing dies are Forster benchrest dies with the high mounted floating expander that reduces runout. I'm not a fan of the Lee collet die and sizing the case twice.

Also you can send the Forster die back to them and they will custom hone the dies neck to the requested diameter.

Polishing the expander or upgrading to a carbide expander makes a world of difference along with lubing the inside of your necks with graphite or case lube.

If the force of pulling the expander through the case neck is excessive normally its a rough expander or possibly the die over sizing the case neck.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

 

[358Rooster]

I just want to add to bigedp51's comment about expander pull-through, especially when using 'run-of-the-mill' expanders; a quick (but thorough) brushing with a tight-fitting nylon or scrificial bronze brush really helps to resolve the problems associated with pulling that button back out. I think a lot of reloaders neglect this step. Hard pull-through often results in screwing up your carefully sized shoulder location, where it can actually pull a part of the shoulder up enough to cause a tight fit again, if you were aiming for that .001" - .002" shoulder set back in the first place.

Rooster

 

[emerson]

I just want to add to bigedp51's comment about expander pull-through, especially when using 'run-of-the-mill' expanders; a quick (but thorough) brushing with a tight-fitting nylon or scrificial bronze brush really helps to resolve the problems associated with pulling that button back out. I think a lot of reloaders neglect this step. Hard pull-through often results in screwing up your carefully sized shoulder location, where it can actually pull a part of the shoulder up enough to cause a tight fit again, if you were aiming for that .001" - .002" shoulder set back in the first place.

Rooster

Roger, polish expander.

 

[Dogleg]

I usually lose my cases to loose primer pockets before split necks or case separations from mis-adjusted dies even get on the radar.

Something I found with collet dies many years ago is that switching back and forth between collet and FL length dies can cause case neck splits. If you want to use the collets, do yourself a favor and get a body die to go with it.

 

[BigUglyMan]

I don't bump the shoulder unless they won't chamber.

 

[Mystic Precision]

...In conclusion, for longest brass life, collet sizing until the brass is too tight while chambering, then minimum partial f/l sizing to your rifle's chamber, then repeat the cycle. Have I described this correctly?

Assuming you are working with a bolt action rifle in good order....

For best balance of fit and case life, Lee collet neck die (bushing neck dies do a similar job), Body die to bump the shoulder a couple of thou on EVERY firing... anneal neck every 2 to 4 firings. Keep pressure moderate in an action with proper lock up, long brass life is likely.

There is no way to know if any FL sizer fits your chamber until you use it... maybe it fits, maybe it doesn't. There is no effective way to use this die to bump the shoulder without sizing various other parts of the case. If you are dealing with an oversized factory chamber and a min spec FL sizer, you could easily scrape the case body or make a waist.

If you are making "working" ammo, then returning to smaller spec is a very good idea... FL sizing may be the right answer for this situation. Just toss the brass after a couple of firings.

FYI, there is no fixed value for ANY sizing die... all can vary within the limits imposed by SAAMI (and maybe manf preference). Saying I am using a F/L sizing die only indicates that the die is meant to contact and reshape the entire exterior of a case... it does not give a dimension on what you will end up with.

Just borrow several from various manfs and time of manf... compare what comes out the die. Quite enlightening.

The Hard pull you are experiencing is related to oversizing the neck (likely case necks are too thick) and maybe a "rough and large" expander ball.... bad combo.

You can outside neck turn the cases to reduce the amount of sizing and this will reduce the force needed to expand.... make this job a whole lot easier.

Decide on the end product you want.. then use the right tools to get the job done properly

Jerry