Comercial Casters Need Advice.

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msg.drew

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I am currently casting thousands of handgun bullets. Few questions...

All commercially cast bullets use a wax type lubricant, is there a reason why... I noticed Lee offers a alox that is supposedly better then the wax is this true.

I have done a batch of bullets about 6000 I went to test fired them today, they completely leaded up my barrel. I am using that alox stuff from lee... I don't think it works well...

After using my brand of bullets I ran some DRG cast bullets with the wax threw the barrel and it helped clean them up. I am going to do a hardness test to compare them to the DRG today. I am guessing that my problems are surrounding the type of lube. I have used 20000 DRG cast bullets without this problem.

I am looking for an automatic lube and sizing machine who makes these?
I have been looking at the saeco lubri sizer but its manual and I have sized 3000 and its a bit time consuming.
 
Leading would be due to hardness of casting material. Magma makes lube sizer and comercial caster. Lube is wax based. Equipment will be expensive, but is well worth it if you do enought volume.
 
When casting them they are droped into water I think they should be more then hard enough they are still hot and the hit the water and sizzle its like tempering metal. I am going to check the hardness.
 
The reason most outfits use the wax lubes that they do is so the bullets will look good when you receive them. The wax will stay put and the bullets will not look like a slimy mess, like they do with lee liquid alox(tumble lube) the wax lubes that most commercial outfits use is useless as a lube. After firing a bullet with that wax lube you will find that most is still there, a sure sign that it's not working.Good lubes usually use bees wax as the main ingredient, moly grease works good as an ingredient, but is messy. The Star Lubesizer is the machine that most high volume casters use, though they are more expensive and dies are more costly and harder to change/setup(plugging the die holes with lead shot), I'm not sure about seating and crimping gas checks with the Star equip.
 
I tested my cast bullets against my store bought DRG Bullets. The store bought bullets are much softer then my own cast bullets... I don't think the leading is related to the softness of my lead because its quite hard.
 
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SOme people swear by LLA (Lee Liquid Alox). Some people hate it.

Personally I cant stand the stuff but will use it as a last resort if needed.

It's messy in the gun. It's dirty and smokey. It leaves this brown crud in the barrel that if not brushed out will start to lead AND Alox foul the barrel.

It's easy to clean a badly ALOX barrel since Varsol just eats the stuff away, but how many of us carry a bottle of Varsol to the range to swipe our barrels as we shoot?

The best lube I've used is Lars's White Label Carnuba Red hard lube. His softer one works good, too, but is a little more messy than the hard.

For commercially available store bought stuff, the Lyman Orange isn't as good but since it doesn't have to be mail-ordered, it's a good second place lube.
 
762nato said:
Leading would be due to hardness of casting material.QUOTE]

That is true, but it is only one part of the equation. Bullet size also plays a role in leading. Pressure and loads also play a role, too.

That's why most serious casters will slug out their barrels and run a slightly oversized bullet. (ie .357" in a 9mm, .359" in a 38/357, etc...)
Click to expand...
 
Try sizing to .451" maybe? I wonder if you've got a particularly tight barrel, if hard lead is still leaving significant leading.

Also, +1 for the slug-and-lap suggestion; it could just be a rough surface finish on your barrel which is causing problems. However, with your stated commercial bullet results I don't think that's the case... you never know though, I suppose.

Finally, and these might seem like patronizing questions, but I don't intend them to be. Are you alloying your lead significantly? Tin for hardness and antimony for ductility? Also, have you had your cast bullets actually hardness-tested, or are you just going on the fact that water-dropped bullets will be inherently harder than air-dropped?

-M
 
They have been fired out of three different 1911's 1 STI, 2 Springfield's. Its not the barrels...

The lead is recycled wheel weights melted down in 200 lb quantities, how I tested for hardness is put one of my bullets and one that I know is hard and works properly in my guns together at there bases... in a vice and started cranking it down until one started to squish...

My bullet retained its shape where the store bought working bullet crushed long before mine even started to deform.

How much alox do you put on it says a few drops, I stepped up the amount on my second 1000 to alot...
 
1000 bullets in a coffee can and about 3 teaspoon's of alox and shake the hell out of it. After it dries do it again. On the other hand if you are taking the time to size them why are you not lubing them at the same time with a stick lube and the machine?
Ken.
 
Ah 3 teaspoons is alot more then a few dribbles that it says on the bottle so I guess my bullets had no lube on them. I guess thats why they leaded up the barrel

ps 1000 45 bullets wont fit in a coffee can... i am using a 2 litre ice cream tub... oh and a 1000 45 bullets 29lbs its not easy to shake that thing around for too long lol.
 
Lee liquid alox is meant for bullets of tumble lube design. For a particular bullet speed there is a corresponding best bullet hardness. Your water quenched bullets may be too hard for the speed your shooting them at.

The bullet must also match the diameter of the throat, where the chamber transitions to the bore.

Get it wrong with either of the above and you will get leading. There is a great abundance of myths and misinformation about bullet casting and leading and expect to see many posts that are just plain wrong.

Check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ to get good dope on how to shoot cast.
 
The lead is recycled wheel weights melted down in 200 lb quantities, how I tested for hardness is put one of my bullets and one that I know is hard and works properly in my guns together at there bases... in a vice and started cranking it down until one started to squish...
Click to expand...
So it isnt true alloyed lead your using other than whats floating around in the wheel weights:confused:? Just how fast are you pushing these bullets as I am starting to see a pattern here? It may be part of the root problem....
dB
 
I lubed these suckers up till they where almost yellow in colour they still lead up the barrel. I am guess my bullets are to hard. I am going to have to find this chart you speak of to find what hardness is best for 45 acp

Actually I fired twice as many bullets as yesterday, cleaning the barrel it appeared to be much cleaner. My bullet is a semi wadcutter with a single grove for lube of a wax kind I wonder if I use wax lube if everything will be fine... is there an easy way to apply some wax lube to see if this is the issue before I melt them all down and start over.

Looks like I will be throwing these back into the melter, I might try making 100 with out water quenching them. Before I go nutz and make 10000 that I can't use lol
 
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Water-quenched WW is VERY hard, harder than linotype (Bhn 30 versus 22). If bullets are too hard or too small, they don't obdurate (fill the bore), and instead skip along the lands, leaving big streaks of lead behind.

Regular-pressure .45 loads need a nice soft alloy, I recommend a 10:1 lead/tin mixture, no antimony, not water-quenched. You'll find that the Lee lube works much better when the bullet is obdurating fully to create a gas seal.

Re: the hard wax lube, like bullet hardness this is purely for the manufacturer's convenience, not yours. It's much easier to ship hard bullets in hard wax, and you get a lot fewer returns from bullets that are damaged (or just look damaged) and lube that has melted or smeared. Hard lubed bullets are shelf-stable just about forever, at any reasonable temperature, and will shoot 'OK' in most guns. None of this is for the shooter's benefit...
 
msg drew: tell us more about the bullet. Is it a bevel base for instance? Have you actually determined what your bore diameter is? I dislike LLA quite a bit and would much prefer a quality lube applied with a lube-sizer. My results using LLA have been sporadic: some times it works, some times it does not. No longer use it at all.
 
Go to Magma Engineering and buy a star resizing press. Then go to cast boolits as guninhand said in his post and get some of Lars lube. That should be the end of your problems. Ray.
 
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