Commercial BSA MkIII Lee-Enfield?

[purple]

I've owned a very nice undated BSA made MkIII for some years which appears to be a commercial sale rifle as it is devoid of military property marks, but has the usual BNP proofs. The s/n is 3 digits-E-5digits. The bolt is matching with the last 5 digits of the s/n. The s/n markings are all original with no overstamps or crossed out characters. The receiver ring is engraved with a previous owners name and "Winnipeg" in jeweler's style engraving. The rifle is in stock condition and is very accurate. It has a cutoff installed.

I've never stripped the rifle to check for other markings, nor do I plan to. The absence of military markings plus the engraved name on the receiver suggests that this piece may be a commercial sales rifle which was purchased by a civilian target shooter. I can't find anything helpful in the Skennerton or Stratton books, but the "E" in the s/n suggest that the receiver may have been made in 1917. This is interesting because I understand that BSA was only producing MkIII* receivers in 1917. Anyone have any expertise in this area?

 

[shredder]

Can you post pics purple??

I thought that BSA was strictly devoted to military production in WWI. If that's the case, how then could a civilian model (without proof marks) be produced in 1917?

Could it be a receiver that was produced before WWI and sold commercially?

 

[purple]

In this case photos aren't really a help with identifying markings or lack thereof, but the rear sight leaf is numbered to the rifle. The rifle does have the standard BSA markings, incl the crossed rifles over the chamber, and BNP proofs, but there no military property stamps.

 

[Cdn303]

My guess would be a receiver was scrubbed and rebuilt into a civilian rifle in the 20's or 30's. I did have one like that (MkIII receiver with the cutoff but the serial number suggested 1917 build date), but it was sporterized and I sold it 2 years ago.

Also there was no firm date on transitions from one model the next, or stopping production of one type of rifle. I am in current possession on a MIII* made by BSA in '43, when all MKIII* production was supposed to stop by late 41-early 42.

 

[purple]

There's no evidence of the receiver ring being ground down to obliterate any previous s/n. It looks totally original. I'll just keep on calling it a "puzzle rifle".

 

[#4mk1(T)]

I would have to say that 1917 production is very unlikely as any rifle built in that time frame would have been absorbed by the war effort. Keep in mind also that the serial number blocks used in that timeframe were assigned by the MOD for use on military contract firearms. Firearms built for civilian sale would more likely have serial numbers assigned in-house by BSA.
At the cessation of hostilities the requirement for the magazine cut off was reinstated so any rifle built post war and up to the mid-20s would be correct if so fitted.
I would suggest removing the rear handguard and checking for a barrel date. Though not conclusive this would be a good starting point.

 

[hogie]

I have one as well. Bought it from Collectors Source about 8 years ago. The described them as a commercial rifle. No date stamp. Made in the 1930 time frame. Great shooter. They had a lot of them at that time.

 

[purple]

Mine's never been anywhere near Collector Source. I bought it in Brandon, MB around 13 yrs ago and learned that it had been in the area since the 1940s. It was consigned for sale just before the gun registry came into effect. I did a search on the name which is engraved on the receiver and came up with a burial record in Winnipeg from 1953. Don't know if it's the same individual, but it's a possibility.

 

[QM 8687]

I have one as well. Bought it from Collectors Source about 8 years ago. The described them as a commercial rifle. No date stamp. Made in the 1930 time frame. Great shooter. They had a lot of them at that time.

Got my BSACo Mk III from CanAm Enterprizes 25 yrs ago. I was always told these rifles were made civilian market such as Bisley shooters etc, back in the 1920's. It is hard to find anything in print to confirm. Mine is a shooter too.
Additional markings. Pairs of Crown over BM.
Pairs of V over 13 and V over 23.
BSA Crossed Rifles on barrel knox.
Mine is also South Afrika symbol stamped barrel and action.
I do believe these are a tad heavier barrels, fitting new wood is more of a challenge, but to mic main areas, measure the same. Bit of a mystery.

 

[buffdog]

There were some early BSA production rifles shipped to Australia that were restamped with a five digit serial number. Might be wrong, but the number 85,000 comes to mind. I recently examined one in Ontario for an acquaintance, and it was similarly stamped. The serial number that was restamped fell within the list of early Aussie SMLE rifles given in The Lee-Enfield Story book.

 

[5THBATT]

There were some early BSA production rifles shipped to Australia that were restamped with a five digit serial number. Might be wrong, but the number 85,000 comes to mind. I recently examined one in Ontario for an acquaintance, and it was similarly stamped. The serial number that was restamped fell within the list of early Aussie SMLE rifles given in The Lee-Enfield Story book.

Most likely a MD inventory number, look anything like these?

 

[woodchopper]

Got my BSACo Mk III from CanAm Enterprizes 25 yrs ago. I was always told these rifles were made civilian market such as Bisley shooters etc, back in the 1920's. It is hard to find anything in print to confirm. Mine is a shooter too.
Additional markings. Pairs of Crown over BM.
Pairs of V over 13 and V over 23.
BSA Crossed Rifles on barrel knox.
Mine is also South Afrika symbol stamped barrel and action.
I do believe these are a tad heavier barrels, fitting new wood is more of a challenge, but to mic main areas, measure the same. Bit of a mystery.

I would agree, mine is fitted with a BSA barrel but the barrel crown was not the same as the military crown it was finished with a flat crown and from what I have read that was the prefered crown for target shooters. much like the 11 deg crown is used today.

 

[Tinman204]

Great thread guys!! Going to have to look closer at my commercial bsa smle next time I'm in my vault. I'll post my findings as soon as I take a look.

BTW mine is also a shooter!!

 

[QM 8687]

Got my BSACo Mk III from CanAm Enterprizes 25 yrs ago. I was always told these rifles were made civilian market such as Bisley shooters etc, back in the 1920's. It is hard to find anything in print to confirm. Mine is a shooter too.
Additional markings. Pairs of Crown over BM.
Pairs of V over 13 and V over 23.
BSA Crossed Rifles on barrel knox.
Mine is also South Afrika symbol stamped barrel and action.
I do believe these are a tad heavier barrels, fitting new wood is more of a challenge, but to mic main areas, measure the same. Bit of a mystery.

Also.
On Barrel & action Stamped- 35210. On Barrel stamped- HV. On Barrel stamped- NITRO PROOF. At Barrel Muzzle crown is flat.
Thanks to all the fresh feedback. I am definitely leaning towards these rifles as made for Bisley and other civilian competitors.
On a side note once while shooting at Bisley 1983, I shot along side an elderly gentleman. Helped him up from the 500 mound. He showed me his target rifle an SMLE .303 with target sights. He told me he first shot at Bisley as a cadet, around 1914 He was 83 yrs old and still shooting his 303.