Competition vs. Duty Pistols

[USP]

An AD is impossible. All unintentional discharges are due to NEGLIGENCE nothing else.

TDC

wrong, although rare mechanical failure has caused ADs, but like posted above most so called ADs are just NDs...

Plenty of todays "Duty" guns are good enough to compete with, if anything most high end brands get smoother after many rounds have gone through them. Generally they seem to be more reliable then the tricked out race guns as well. Ive used my USP and have been happy with it.

 

[Slavex]

strangely enough a Glock "upgrade" err recall was prompted due to an AD. of course since it was an upgrade no one freaked out. but due to the slides ability to slightly lift off the rear, it allowed the striker to go forward with no trigger press, shooting the person attempting to holster the gun, in the leg. I don't recall all the details from that particular incident, just being informed of it. I am sure some of the more rabidly inquisitive folks can look it up somewhere.
and as has been noted by a few people AD is standard nomenclature for guns going bang when they shouldn't.

 

[Wendell]

WARNING! Thread hijack!

 

[Canuck44]

There are competition shooters in IPSC/IDPA and their are participants. If you are a participant and enjoy a night/day out with the boys and making your toys go bang then the distinction between thte two types of guns, IMHO is moot. You won't wear out a duty pistol and you won't be pushing a "Competition" gun to its life end either.

For those like Slavex and others who compete at the highest level then having a gun that will do 10,000+ rds per year, year in and year out is very important. It must go bang every time or they are not in the game.

Decide which type of shooter you are, or aspire to be, and spend your money accordingly.

Take Care

Bob

 

[bkjedi]

strangely enough a Glock "upgrade" err recall was prompted due to an AD. of course since it was an upgrade no one freaked out. but due to the slides ability to slightly lift off the rear, it allowed the striker to go forward with no trigger press, shooting the person attempting to holster the gun, in the leg. I don't recall all the details from that particular incident, just being informed of it. I am sure some of the more rabidly inquisitive folks can look it up somewhere.
and as has been noted by a few people AD is standard nomenclature for guns going bang when they shouldn't.

A cop wearing a tactical thigh rig shot himself in the leg as he was getting out of his car. Investigation revealed that the right rear frame rail was broken off, which allowed the slide to lift off by a few millimetres. This circumvented the internal safeties and caused the striker to be released forward. Because of the Glock's half-cocked condition, the primer was striked with enough force to discharge the round into his leg.

The skimpy frame rails are one of the few design flaws on Glocks. I wasn't aware of any upgrade or recall, so as far as I know this type of AD is still possible, however unlikely.

 

[jerichoholic_ninja]

Thanks Sean, your response explained a lot but I am surprised to hear that a competition gun has a longer lifespan than a duty gun. I would have expected a duty gun to be overengineered to be more durable and therefore last longer, assuming that a proper maintenance schedule is followed for either type of gun.

 

[TDC]

strangely enough a Glock "upgrade" err recall was prompted due to an AD. of course since it was an upgrade no one freaked out. but due to the slides ability to slightly lift off the rear, it allowed the striker to go forward with no trigger press, shooting the person attempting to holster the gun, in the leg. I don't recall all the details from that particular incident, just being informed of it. I am sure some of the more rabidly inquisitive folks can look it up somewhere.
and as has been noted by a few people AD is standard nomenclature for guns going bang when they shouldn't.

The case you mention is of a Calgary TAC officer who did not experience a mechanical failure, it was ignorance. If you understood how Glocks work you would understand that it is impossible for the striker to "discharge" should the slide become separated from the frame. Furthermore, the striker cannot make contact with the primer unless the firing pin block is disabled which only occurs when the trigger bar is depressed to the rear. If the slide was in fact separated from the frame than the node on the trigger bar which disables the firing pin block would not be anywhere near the firing pin block and could not have permitted striker to primer contact.

The more realistic scenario involves something(like the zipper on a coat) being lodged with the gun in the holster(the officer was using a drop leg rig) and upon jerking the coat free, it contacted the trigger and the pistol functioned as advertised.

I do agree that very rare mechanical failures could possibly cause an ND. However, this would most likely occur in a single action firearm only. Many of the so called mechanical failures are due to operators f*cking with the internals or not inspecting their guns for worn or broken parts.

TDC

 

[Freedom Ventures]

Thanks Sean, your response explained a lot but I am surprised to hear that a competition gun has a longer lifespan than a duty gun. I would have expected a duty gun to be overengineered to be more durable and therefore last longer, assuming that a proper maintenance schedule is followed for either type of gun.

You're welcome -
As Rob said, a duty gun is carried practically it's entire life, while a competiton gun is shot.
Each product is built for it's intended tasks and specs.

 

[Slavex]

not talking about the Calgary one, there was one in the USA too.

 

[maurice]

Competition type gun.

Duty type gun;

I would not want to carry my LC as a duty gun ALL shift. I would rather carry something a little lighter.
Here is a pic of my Stock2....9mm...I could carry this Cocked and locked,..or DA hammer down,...and knowing what I know,..I would be confident in this pistol if it was issued to me and I carried it. It is a little heavy,.but reliable in my experience. I would use night sights instead FO sights.

 

[cablemonkey]

The case you mention is of a Calgary TAC officer ...
TDC

The case slavex refers to happened years ago in NYC.

I recall reading about it in a magazine back in the day. The author of the article was amazed to be able to duplicate the completely mechanical failure which caused the AD.

 

[Rich LPS]

TDC,

You are wrong, again, as usual. Slavex put it right when he said, "You take a few courses and suddenly you're an expert" (or something like that). The incident with the Calgary Police Service was almost accurately described. It was a K9 officer, not a Tactical Officer. And yes, the gun twisted in the holster, causing the slide to move up and away from the frame, ever so slightly. The striker went forward, from pre-#### position, and fired the weapon, striking the officer in the leg. The firing pin safety was worn, as it was on many of the weapons and did not prevent the weapon from firing.

Thanks for your great analysis TDC, but you don't know enough about the situation to provide accurate feedback to anyone. There have been several other similar incidents with Glocks around North America. I think Glocks are great weapons, just not quite as good as Sig's...ha...ha.

I almost agree with Sean's explaination. I would disagree with duty weapons being engineered for 20-30 K. Let's have a look at most of the major Tier 1 SF units. They carry Glock, Sig Sauer and HK almost always. There are a very few US Units that have custom 1911 style guns. Some of our Canadian SF's Sig Sauer P226's have well over 100,000 K through them and going strong (proper maintanence and spring changes).

Rich

 

[Canuck44]

"There are a very few US Units that have custom 1911 style guns. "

Due mostly becuase of the cost. KImber gave the LAPD SWAT team their guns as a promo lead for their advertising campaign (I have that from inside the industry). I decent 1911 is going to run at least a third higher in price than comparable poly guns and it weighs 41 oz. to boot.

Budgets are the principle driver behind LEO purchases in Canada I suspect. I mean no disrespect to Glock when I say that. Their gun hs a proven record of reliability nd certainly meets the carry requirements of urban LEO"s.

Take Care

Bob

 

[CeeZer]

Was it LA SWAT or SIS? I'd say 1911s have quite limited mag capacity for SWAT units but are sufficient for Investigation Team...

CZ SP-01 variant in .40 or better off in 10mm would be a very nice service gun with it's accuracy, reliability, low cost and mag capacity...

 

[Canuck44]

LAPD SWAT - just pick up any gun mag there usually is an ad from Kimber trumpeting their civilian version of the gun they "sold" to the team. As to capacity - the pistol is their back up weapon, not their primary. Not sure if mag capacity is much of an issue.

Take Care

Bob

 

[TDC]

TDC,

You are wrong, again, as usual. Slavex put it right when he said, "You take a few courses and suddenly you're an expert" (or something like that). The incident with the Calgary Police Service was almost accurately described. It was a K9 officer, not a Tactical Officer. And yes, the gun twisted in the holster, causing the slide to move up and away from the frame, ever so slightly. The striker went forward, from pre-#### position, and fired the weapon, striking the officer in the leg. The firing pin safety was worn, as it was on many of the weapons and did not prevent the weapon from firing.

Thanks for your great analysis TDC, but you don't know enough about the situation to provide accurate feedback to anyone. There have been several other similar incidents with Glocks around North America. I think Glocks are great weapons, just not quite as good as Sig's...ha...ha.

I almost agree with Sean's explaination. I would disagree with duty weapons being engineered for 20-30 K. Let's have a look at most of the major Tier 1 SF units. They carry Glock, Sig Sauer and HK almost always. There are a very few US Units that have custom 1911 style guns. Some of our Canadian SF's Sig Sauer P226's have well over 100,000 K through them and going strong (proper maintanence and spring changes).

Rich

If the firing pin safety was indeed worn and defective then the ND in question is operator error. Ensuring the safety devices on Glocks are functional is part of every field strip and clean. Personally I don't buy it. Glocks are not "pre cocked". The striker is under a small amount of spring pressure when in the forward position. There isn't enough force to detonate a round. This minimal force ensures the striker remains in contact with the crucible sear/trigger bar and aids in keeping the trigger in a forward state.

While we're here. I never said anything about knowing everything, somehow others found those words. Oh, and when were you going to get back to my question regarding "other tactical" uses for a safety/selector that is capable of selecting safe on a rifle. I'm sure you remember that discussion. Myself and others are still waiting for your response..

TDC

 

[Freedom Ventures]

I almost agree with Sean's explaination. I would disagree with duty weapons being engineered for 20-30 K.

Rich, I didn't mean to imply they're engineered that way.
What I meant to inform on is that is the spec that they publish and are required to meet.
Now, if you know your product only has to get 30K rounds out of it over 10 years before it meets the <cringe> chopsaw
- and - you're in a bidding war on every tender; you don't plan an overbuild and spend that extra coin.

 

[Slavex]

If the firing pin safety was indeed worn and defective then the ND in question is operator error. Ensuring the safety devices on Glocks are functional is part of every field strip and clean. Personally I don't buy it. Glocks are not "pre cocked". The striker is under a small amount of spring pressure when in the forward position. There isn't enough force to detonate a round. This minimal force ensures the striker remains in contact with the crucible sear/trigger bar and aids in keeping the trigger in a forward state.


TDC

the amount of movement caused by the crucifix (or form or whatever) when you pull the trigger is so minimal as to basically be useless. the striker is pre-cocked, which is why tests down with just slides and primed cases show that depressing the firing pin block will allow the round to fire. been there, done that. worn safeties are not something the average field officer is going to be able to confirm in a strip and clean session. that's armorer level stuff for the most part, or truly gun crazy cops at the very least. you'd have to be checking your strikers travel by snapping it against the firing pin safety to see if it bypasses it. Haven't seen that in field strip manuals.

 

[bclinehand]

and TDC goes back on the ignore list

 

[Freedom Ventures]

Was it LA SWAT or SIS? I'd say 1911s have quite limited mag capacity for SWAT units but are sufficient for Investigation Team...

STI Tactical 2011 units are very often sold to US LEO as are Paras. Capacity is no issue with regard to the 1911 platform.
And - those US LEOs that choose 1911s with max 8+1 round capacity - don't need more.

CZ SP-01 variant in .40 or better off in 10mm would be a very nice service gun with it's accuracy, reliability, low cost and mag capacity...

There is a reason they are not offered in 10mm. The CZ design is designed for 9mm. It's streaching it's life at 40. 10mm would self destruct.