Compression in black powder cartridges?? PLEASE READ ALL ANTIQUE SHOOTERS

old303 said:
The advantage of Trail Boss is that it's the lowest-density fluffiest smokeless powder, so the various issues of a tiny charge of denser powder being in the wrong part of the case for ignition or allowing multiple charges to inadvertently be loaded are reduced. If you're trying for the smallest possible smokeless charge it's what'll get you there. But it would still be faster-burning than black powder and so unrecommended for pre-smokeless antiques that should probably only be used with the black powder they were designed for.

Trail Boss is mostly for Cowboy Action or PPC where someone wants their revolver to barely go pop and minimize recoil, so usually single-action replicas or double-action guns.
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My experience of using many lb's of TB in a .45 LC for ten years at cowboy matches don't agree with that...I found that TB is extremely "position sensitive" in the case, so much so that I carried at least one scenario's amount of rounds loaded with TG or 7625 for any stages shooting downhill from a palisade. I have had so much un-burnt TB in a revolver that it locked up solid, worse than BP fouling will do. TB works fine if enough of the powder is back against the case webb but if its all up behind the slug, it won't ignite reliably.

And yes, TB is a "fast smokeless" powder that will pressure up same as any other fast powder...it is a dangerous fallacy that TB, because of its bulkiness is a "sort of BP substitute"...just plain ain't so.
 
old303 said:
The advantage of Trail Boss is that it's the lowest-density fluffiest smokeless powder, so the various issues of a tiny charge of denser powder being in the wrong part of the case for ignition or allowing multiple charges to inadvertently be loaded are reduced. If you're trying for the smallest possible smokeless charge it's what'll get you there. But it would still be faster-burning than black powder and so unrecommended for pre-smokeless antiques that should probably only be used with the black powder they were designed for.

Trail Boss is mostly for Cowboy Action or PPC where someone wants their revolver to barely go pop and minimize recoil, so usually single-action replicas or double-action guns.
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fingers284 said:
My experience of using many lb's of TB in a .45 LC for ten years at cowboy matches don't agree with that...I found that TB is extremely "position sensitive" in the case, so much so that I carried at least one scenario's amount of rounds loaded with TG or 7625 for any stages shooting downhill from a palisade. I have had so much un-burnt TB in a revolver that it locked up solid, worse than BP fouling will do. TB works fine if enough of the powder is back against the case webb but if its all up behind the slug, it won't ignite reliably.

And yes, TB is a "fast smokeless" powder that will pressure up same as any other fast powder...it is a dangerous fallacy that TB, because of its bulkiness is a "sort of BP substitute"...just plain ain't so.
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Well darn. After using TB for a year and being very pleased with the lighter recoil, consistent accuracy and powder burn. I don't know why I let people convince me at my club and a few buddies convince me to use TB. I am not interested in BP. Don't waste your time trying to convince me to use it. I guess it's back to Unique. Unless you folks have another smokeless suggestion.

Thanks.
Moe
 
Moe said:
Well darn. After using TB for a year and being very pleased with the lighter recoil, consistent accuracy and powder burn. I don't know why I let people convince me at my club and a few buddies convince me to use TB. I am not interested in BP. Don't waste your time trying to convince me to use it. I guess it's back to Unique. Unless you folks have another smokeless suggestion.

Thanks.
Moe
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Trail Boss is great in the right application; I've burned pounds of it myself and it remains one of my favorite powders BUT as noted it has its cautions and limitations. I've found it gives bad accuracy in certain conditions, one example that stands out is my 45/70 Pedersoli Sharps (could be the position sensitivity noted above?); but for plinking or shooting steel (or IDPA - I used it in .38 Special for several years) it's fine and no concerns over a double charge especially in a small case where a few tenths of a grain of Bullseye could be more disasterous (such as .32 Colt). I myself love it for 45 Colt (although granted not in an antique). If you read available load data for different cartridges, it does indeed give MORE pressure at 70% density than for instance Bullseye in SOME cases - the point is, do your research but FWIW I still use it (with caution and research first).

If you're looking to switch from TB and for an alternative to Unique, Titegroup is one I've played around with it's in that same burn rate category - and personally I think Titegroup is a little cleaner burning than Bullseye.
 
Moe said:
Well darn. After using TB for a year and being very pleased with the lighter recoil, consistent accuracy and powder burn. I don't know why I let people convince me at my club and a few buddies convince me to use TB. I am not interested in BP. Don't waste your time trying to convince me to use it. I guess it's back to Unique. Unless you folks have another smokeless suggestion.

Thanks.
Moe
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Don't get me wrong, I love Trail Boss (and Unique, and black powder too) but they're each different beasties needing different reloading data and I hadn't reached my present age with all fingers and toes still attached by being incautious of how I use such things. There's a good chance that an older firearm can handle charges of all three, but I don't claim to be the expert who can tell you what your gun can handle. If you've got a charge that works and follows whatever good advice you have access to then by all means load up and have fun!

(And yes, smaller smokeless charges in BP-designed brass have issues with primer spark throwing over the charge or having to go the length of the case, and TB taking up a bit more volume theoretically gives it a better chance of being where the spark is, but ignition sensitivity when the spark is reaching way out to it would be an issue too. Going closer to max charge and not flirting so hard with min charges might help. And I've seen revolver competitors discovering that their first round behaves differently than the rest that are settled by recoil and tilting the gun prior to the string for consistency.)
 
FARMHANDYO said:
Hi everyone,

Im making this post as a warning to all but also a question. I am new to reloading black powder cartridges and reload for a french model 1873 antique revolver made in 1875.

1. *WARNING*

Ive heard alot of talk from people on this forum about reloading black powder cartridges with smokeless powder. When I purchased my 1873 that's how I started. I heard from multiple members that as long as you use the right powder and keep it at a low charge that most antique firearms would be fine. So I reloaded 11mm french (a stubby 45 caliber french cartridge 190 grain bullet) with 3 grains of trailboss powder. The trailboss was not compressed and sat comfortably under the bullet. I was even told by a gunsmith that it would be fine and that the revolver was built like a tank. The first few outings were totally fine. The revolver was accurate reliable and the cases showed no sign of over pressure and I inspected the entire revolver when cleaning. One day I took out the revolver again with the same load. I fired 20 rounds with no issue then on the 21st round I heard a pop sound. I dont exactly know how to describe it but I knew that something was wrong. I took the cylinder out of the revolver and it was fine no bulging or anything. The revolvers barrel also showed no signs of bulging. But looking at where the hand comes out to rotate the cylinder I noticed in horror that there was now a 1 centimeter crack that went through both sides of the frame. I was pretty horrified by this and stopped shooting. I took the revolver completely apart and saw that none of the internals were damaged at all just that one crack. It was easy to get to and a gunsmith tig welded it for me. The revolver looks fine now you would never know that it had cracked. This is just a warning to people to be extremely careful or maybe to not load smokeless powder in this french revolver because it cannot handle it. I think that the sharp spike in pressure with smokeless is what cracked the frame of the revolver and the lack of hardening of the steel. This is just my experience and you can take it or leave it. Its your business after all but I felt like I had a responsibly to share this experience with other antique revolver owners.

2. Question:

I now shoot this revolver with 3fff black powder only GOEX. The revolver has now seen 200 rounds through it with black with no issues at all. The case can hold 11 grains without compression. My question is this. Is it okay to compress black powder in a cartridge? I can get 13 grains of 3fff in the cases and can hear the powder compressing when using a press seating the bullet. Is this okay to do? Is this common place since you want to have very little space in a black powder cartridge?
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First - never use smokeless powder - any smokeless powder in a gun made for black powder. No if - maybe or for ANY reason - period. Your gun is a black powder only gun and anybody that tell you otherwise do not know what he is talking about.

Two - no airspace below bullet - just touch will do BUT usually, Black powder work best with a little bit of compression.

I do not know why you want to soup up that cartridge and bump up the load to 13 grains.

Velocity of the original round was only 430 fts for a 181 grains bullet and original specs loaded 10 grains of black powder. You are already exceeding factory specs. Your bullet is heavier and you are already over charge.

Keep in mind this is an 150 years old gun.
 
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Janeau said:
First - never use smokeless powder - any smokeless powder in a gun made for black powder. No if - maybe or for ANY reason - period. Your gun is a black powder only gun and anybody that tell you otherwise do not know what he is talking about.

Two - no airspace below bullet - just touch will do BUT usually, Black powder work best with a little bit of compression.

I do not know why you want to soup up that cartridge and bump up the load to 13 grains.

Velocity of the original round was only 430 fts for a 181 grains bullet and original specs loaded 10 grains of black powder. You are already exceeding factory specs. Your bullet is heavier and you are already over charge.

Keep in mind this is an 150 years old gun.
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I don't really think that compressing a little bit more black powder in the stubby little case will cause any trouble. In fact I'm not entirely sure but I would assume that the french used 10-12 grains of 3fff compressed with a wad then the 190 grain bullet. I haven't seen any signs of over pressure and the cases don't even fully expand.
 
Janeau said:
First - never use smokeless powder - any smokeless powder in a gun made for black powder. No if - maybe or for ANY reason - period. Your gun is a black powder only gun and anybody that tell you otherwise do not know what he is talking about.

Two - no airspace below bullet - just touch will do BUT usually, Black powder work best with a little bit of compression.

I do not know why you want to soup up that cartridge and bump up the load to 13 grains.

Velocity of the original round was only 430 fts for a 181 grains bullet and original specs loaded 10 grains of black powder. You are already exceeding factory specs. Your bullet is heavier and you are already over charge.

Keep in mind this is an 150 years old gun.
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Well said. There is a culture on the forums of "well my gun hasn't blown up yet so I'll advise the newbies to shoot overpressure rounds too". The opposite approach should prevail.
 
FARMHANDYO said:
So I reloaded 11mm french (a stubby 45 caliber french cartridge 190 grain bullet) with 3 grains of trailboss powder.
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If you were using the original case specs for 11mm French, the stubby case would've greatly increased smokeless pressures due to small case volume. There's another CGN'er named burnt_servo who reamed the cylinder for .45 Schofield and loads 5 grains of trailboss, and to my knowledge hasn't blown his hand off yet. Regardless, I personally would never use smokeless in a MAS 1873. I shoot mine with 15 grains of Triple Se7en.
 
Some of these antiques have shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds in their 100 year plus lives, some have only shot a few rounds so we will never know how abused they are prior to purchasing. I personally have shot a few thousand rounds of Trailboss out of my antique S&W 44 DA over a 10 year period and the gun is still solid. I have consistently used 4 grains trailboss with 200 grain soft cast bullets, all my buddys shoot the same formulas from their antique S&W 44 DA's and between all of us there has never been an issue
 
I make a point of never going over 70% charge in vintage guns when using trail Boss .
My Haenel 8.15X46R gets loaded with 8.5 grains of Trail Boss and runs right around 1100-1200 FFPS with absolutely no uses. It has better density than my 4759 load or my Unique load .
In My Snider I run a little lighter than the standard BP load and both are accurate .
If I person wants to get modern Smokeless cartridge velocities I tell them to stay away from antiques .
Cat
 
Small internal volume of the cartridge. If OP was using brass with similar specs to the original 11mm French, which was a pretty short cartridge, it probably caused pressures to spike higher than what the 1873 frame could handle.
 
iron cat said:
Can you define what they meant by "small volume"?
the reason I ask is because Hodgdon's website has data for some pretty small cases using Trail Boss
Cat
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Smaller than .32 S and W is not recommended on their site. Would also include .455 webley .44 american .320 and 11mm revolver as small volume.
 
In the antiques I have shot, pyrodex p is what I used. The cost of antique revolvers and the risk of damage or injuries is too great to stray into smokeless.
 
My 2 pennies worth, I stopped using trailboss, bullseye, or any of these fast pistol powder in antique handguns. The pressure curve on these is much more abrupt than 3f black.

I use unique for most of my antique revolvers now. It's close to 3f burn speed.
 
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