Condition???????!!!

B

b72471

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Cariboo Quesnel, B.C.
I've bought and sold rifles on this forum. Yea I've been stung a couple times.
So I was interested in a rifle , made an offer on the price and asked for a 3 day non shooting inspection. Anyway we were close on the price $15 dollars apart, so that wasn't a big deal, what really turned me off was the NO on the inspection part. In this forum with the older and collectable rifles ,I would be careful about what I buy based on someone elses opinion on what the grade is, (VG to the seller may not be VG to the buyer!) The 3 day in inspection would cost the seller nothing!!
Take care and be carefull, Bill
 
I usually look at the inspection option as a good selling practice. Personally, when I sell a rifle, I do mention to the potential buyer that if he's not happy with it, he can ship it back if it's in the same shape as when it left my place, and I'll refund the money no questions asked, so all that he looses is the money paid for shipping; and what I loose is only some time spent chatting with the CFC.

Lou
 
If you and the seller agree on terms, then it is a do or die deal..... Alot of buyers do alot of things you or I would not do in a gun shop or gun show... Where does the problem lie? You said it "I would be careful about what I buy based on someone elses opinion on what the grade is, (VG to the seller may not be VG to the buyer!)"

Caveat emptor
 
Usually, I will ask for pictures. Not pictures taken with a cell phone either. If the seller won't email good sharp pictures, no sale. No matter how hard the rifle/handgun is to find. Through my own overzealousness to aquire a certain item at one time or another, I let my guard down and have paid the price more than once. I really think there is something wrong with a seller that won't offer a non shooting inspection period.
I can understand if a firearm has been used during inspection or dropped and damaged, not accepting a return. I've had it happen when a firearm was taken out and had several hundred rounds of 22rf put down the bore over a weekend, without cleaning and returned as "not accurate". The rifle in question was a semi auto with a 25 round mag and that had been damaged as well. The bore looked like a sewer pipe from the lead fouling. I cleaned the crud out of the bore and took it to the range. It was, of course, a Ruger 10/22 and shot into an inch at 50 yards. Quite acceptable for most off the shelf semi autos. I contacted the buyer and later spoke to him over the phone, it turned out he and a bud had gotten tanked over the weekend and the bud had convinced him that any 22rf semi should be able to shoot thousands of rounds without cleaning. I told him what I thought of him and his bud as well as their knowledge base. I also told him that if I saw anymore of his posts on CGN, I would put in a negative response on his trader rating and a lengthy description as well as an invite to contact me for more details. I'm sure he scammed me out of the use of a rifle for a drunken weekend spree. I also haven't seen or heard of him on CGN again as well.

It works both ways, Caveat Emptor is the rule. Both ways.
 
I've bought and sold a bunch, and every time it was "All Sales Final" both ways. I've never offered (nor asked for) an inspection period, but always provide plenty of good pics, and a description that if anything under rates the gun. As a seller I can't be bothered with an extended tire-kicking drama and the waste of time and loss of shipping costs to me that would come with a return, for reasons that could include all kinds of flakiness such as buyer remorse. If someone doesn't like that, it's "Next!"

Only once have I asked for a refund, and I knew in advance one was not mandatory. It was a bayonet scabard with a hole in the side not in the crappy cell phone pictures. Nothing subjective there like bore condition - it was pure deception. He gave my money back and went on my "never buy from list". No feedback was left because the transaction was reversed.
 
I have come across a similar related issue in regards to demands for a serial number of a firearm, in particular an antique revolver, prior to payment. I had a few self proclaimed "collectors" figure they had to have the serial number so they could contact the manufacturer for shipping info and history. The observation I made was, if the gun proves to have been shipped to some famous law man, or was in the possession of a infamous outlaw, would this "collector" readily pay the true value which would be in 5 figures or more...his answer "well of course not". After an heated exchange I blew the guy off and changed the listing to address this demand.
An inspection period can work both ways, but can be abused.
I always post detailed photographs and have plenty more to supply if requested...I have never offered an inspection period, and have not had any requests for same. Additionally, I will not supply a serial number of a registered or and antique firearm prior to receiving full payment. My response for any request of a serial number is..."The serial number will cost, $(Whatever the price of the gun is). Please forward full payment, upon receipt, I will ship to you the full serial number. Plus as an added bonus, at no additional cost, I will include in the gun the serial number is attached to".
Problem solved.
 
Alonzo, I will agree with you to a point. If I'm paying top dollar for a "matching numbers" K98 or Lee Enfield, I want verification and as you mentioned, sharp, clear pictures. Bore condition is also relavent and though not really photographed easily I must rely on the sellers judgement.
Actually, I will no longer buy a firearm through the EE or any ad, unless the seller is willing or able to send pictures or will give me a decent inspection time. I am of course willing to pay the shipping charges both ways and prepay the price, with the understanding that the check or money order will not be cashed until I'm satisfied.
 
I also have to chime in here as well, having seen both ways. I've sent off an firearm and was informed by the recipient a month or so later that it "was not want I wanted", This, after probably 25 to 35 pre purchase pictures of every conceivable component and marking only to get it back with every screw on an untouched miniature Martini buggered beyond belief. Then again, I have purchased an antique piece and it is absolutely amazing what Photoshop can do with the % of blue remaining. The person missed his calling and instead of selling firearms should have been in the computer enhancement game. Yes, red rust and pitting can become blue, as I found out. I think "gopher hole" should also be included in bore condition in the NRA standards. Then, "the money is in the mail". 8 emails assuring me the "money is in the mail", Then I think everyone in the family died/was dying/had bubonic plague, including himself, or was it he who had passed away from terminal cancer (I forget) but was just letting me know the money was coming...The story was getting so convoluted at this point. This happened not once but twice with the same person, so when the money did show up (from the grave I suspect) and 8 months late, it went back, with "sorry, I don't wish to deal with you". Then the several and I do mean several, who suddenly change their mind after you have told others the item is sold but I see a couple of them are now banned but probably operating under another name...
PLUS, we also get the ones who want you to ship before payment and then are #####ing even before you get the money that the item is not in their hands. Once it is in the mail talk to Canada Post, as if they do see fit they will/might/should/ deliver it..maybe!
Mistakes do happen but it seems the same people are always pressing the cloth.
Rant mode off. Never done this before and it does make me feel a bit better...:)##
 
I've been burnt too... both as a seller and a buyer...

nice old shotgun went out with an inspection period... and stripped (integrally engraved) action screws came back...

As a buyer... with pictures... I bought some milsurp parts that looked like they had great metal finish in the pictures... but were shiny silver when they got here there was so little finish left...

I'm not sure what the answer is... as a buyer I would welcome an inspection period... as a seller... I would hesitate... I guess "in person" is the way to go... bot not always feasable

Maybe a link to the NRA rating scale should be put in the EE... and returns offered if the objective rating doesn't match... once a couple guys do that, it may become standard practice

EB
 
Ive only ever bought 1 item off the EE and was nothing but pleased with both the rifle, and the seller, I think any problems can be solved with constant PM's and pictures, sure it may seem sort of annoying, sending thirty PM's if you felt you may have left a ding out, but in the end when he gets what he wants, and you get what you want with no surprises, it skips all the hassle of this stuff, and makes for a good experience. Due to my dealings with my last EE deal I will gladly use the EE again without hesitation. However like youve all said, Pictures are a must.
 
ArtyMan said:
I agree with a stickey in the EE in regards to the rating scales. Good call
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I doubt that would do much. Liars are liars....... this was described on the EE as "good bore with shiny sharp rifling"

DSC02309-1.jpg
 
NRA conditions ratings have been around for years, I don't know why they are not used. That's in it's self is a big part of the problem, getting everyone to use it is the other.

Here they are FYI.

NRA CONDITION STANDARDS FOR ANTIQUE FIREARMS

FACTORY NEW- All original parts; 100% original finish; in perfect condition in every respect, inside and out.

EXCELLENT- All original parts; over 80% original finish; sharp C lettering, numerals, and design on metal and wood; unmarred wood, fine bore.

FINE- All original parts; over 30% original finish; sharp lettering, numerals and design on metal and wood; minor marks in wood; good bore.

VERY GOOD - All original parts; none to 30% original finish; original metal surfaces smooth with all edges sharp; clear lettering, numerals and design on metal; wood slightly scratched or bruised; bore disregarded for collectors firearms.

GOOD- Some minor replacement parts; metal smoothly rusted or lightly pitted in places, cleaned or reblued; principal letters, numerals and design on metal legible; wood refinished, scratched, bruised or minor cracks repaired; in good working order.

FAIR- Some major parts replaced; minor replacement parts may be required; metal rusted, may be lightly pitted all over, vigorously cleaned or reblued; rounded edges of metal and wood; principal lettering, numerals and design on metal partly obliterated; wood scratched, bruised, cracked or repaired where broken; in fair working order or can be easily repaired and placed in working order.

POOR- Major and minor parts replaced; major replacement parts required and extensive restoration needed; metal deeply pitted; principal lettering, numerals and design obliterated; wood badly scratched, bruised, cracked or broken; mechanically inoperative; generally undesirable as a collectors firearm.

NRA CONDITION STANDARDS FOR MODERN FIREARMS

NEW- Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production.

PERFECT- In New condition in every respect.

EXCELLENT- New condition, used but little; no noticeable marring of wood or metal; bluing perfect (except at muzzle or sharp edges).

VERY GOOD- In perfect working condition; no appreciable wear on working surfaces; no corrosion or pitting; only minor surface dents or scratches.

GOOD- In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces; no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interface with proper functioning.

FAIR- In safe working condition but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments which should be indicated in advertisement, no rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable.
 
Inspect the Bore!!!!!!!

This is for sellers both dealers and private. In retail stores and on the EE; clean the bore, inspect, then grade. Some people are very weak in this one.
The bore is the whole idea of a rifle, unless you are using it for reenactment, wall hanging or parts. My2 cents
 
rgv said:
I doubt that would do much. Liars are liars....... this was described on the EE as "good bore with shiny sharp rifling"
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X2

Not only are some people liars, but any rating system (even the NRA's), is highly subjective. What's the dividing line between a "fine" bore and a "good" one and what do they mean anyways? How do you measure "80%" original finish?

We don't want the EE to be a combination of the government with a rating system and our mommy with a stick to make us obey it and play nice.
 
I’m not a big fan of the inspection period but offer 24 hours no shooting/non disassembly to any of my buyers in the event I have made a mistake in the description. I will not accept back any firearm I’ve sold because “it’s no quite what I was looking for” or buyers remorse. I try to give very accurate descriptions, post good photos and encourage potential buyers to ask questions and make photo requests.
I do this because I once make an error in my description. I can’t spell and compose everything I post in word and spell check it first. Well working on a description and moving a few things around in the description I edited out an important part of the description and posted it. When the buyer received the item he rightly called me on it and I offered a refund on the spot. The buyer declined and I have since seen photos of the rifle here on CGN.
 
I've done two sales here, none of which were firearms, however one was a deact. (none of which the sellers remembered to leave me feedback :( ). I figure if i can provide enough pictures detailing everything, and pointing out every flaw myself, this would cutback on the "inspection period" some people require. At least if they are not satisfied, then that is determined before shipping. Both my sales went down successfully (*cough* if you're reading this, some feedback would be nice , pretty please).
 
Do pics tell the story??????????

Only partly, they tell you nothing about bore condition, nothing about fit and finish of the metal work. We know one of the big sellers from pics is stock condition, but that doesn't make a rifle. I still stand by the inspection period, and yes if someone has taken it upon him self to dissamblem the rifle and screwed something up ; he's bought it. It's a tough call on this one, but remember without the inspection period you're buying BLIND.
Take care and be careful, Bill
 
I agree with what you are saying b72471.

Problem is, as I said, liars are liars. Anyone who will offer inspection/return-if-not-as-advertised privileges, typically will represent the item correctly, and usually will even grade it conservatively.

Honest people will also volunteer to provide quality pics by email.

I know nothing about photography and I was able to take a pic of a bore with a $100 camera from Walmart. Funny thing, I googled the seller after things went sour, and he is a member of all sorts of hobby photography forums, and he called that 'shiny sharp rifling'. Right.

I suppose at the end of the day, asking for an inspection period, or the right to return if not as advertised, will filter out a bad or questionable seller. If the seller agrees to one, then you probably won;t need it. If he won;t, then at least you know where you are at, and 'buyer beware' fully applies.
 
I try and be as honest as possible when describing guns in the EE. Also, if there are no pictures posted, I disregard, no matter how nice the deal sounds. This might seem picky but if you're not competent enough to post pictures on a forum then I'm not comfortable dealing with you.
 
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