Considering doing up the first reloads for my 45-70

CZ_Brno

CZ_Brno

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I couldn't find any 45-70 factory ammo within 200 miles of here and I'm dying to try out my Marlin GBL. So I bought 100 Starline brass, a Lee die set, and 100 Missouri Bullet Co .458 405gr RNFP cast bullets. I will start to cast my own bullets when it warms up enough. Might buy some Hornady factory rounds, or buy some jacketed leads to reload for hunting.

Before I load some of 'em up I have some questions. I'm not using gas checks, and I don't need my first batch to be that hot so I need to come up with a good starting load. Maybe something in the 1300-1600 FPS range.

It's the powder that I'm wondering about. There seems to be a lot of powder choices that will work but the case capacity is fairly large, and some of the powders need fillers, and others burn incompletely or dirty.

It appears that IMR 4198, Reloder 7, Alliant 2400, H322, Benchmark, are mostly the better choices. I do have 4198 and Reloder 7 on hand. I was mainly going to save the Reloder 7 for the 7.62x39.

Other possible secondary choices are Blue Dot (have), Red Dot, Unique (have), H335 (have), H4895 and IMR 4895 (have both), IMR 3031 (have), IMR 4064 (have), Varget (have), BL-C (2) (have), Ramshot TAC (have), Trail Boss.

What would you suggest I use for a load? :)
 
Depends on what you want. Trail boss is a good plinking round and easy on the wallet @ 12-13 grains/round. I am just staring out too. I am using 13 grs of trail boss with a 405 gr hard cast bullet (check out bullet barn) for fooling around with. I have just loaded up some jacketed RNFP hornady's 350 gr with 54 grs. of varget (I have lots of varget and don't even use it anymore) I haven't tried it yet, but imagine I will be building up from there. I just got a marlin SBL and love it so far, but @ up to 60grs of varget/ round,, a pound of powder doesn't last long, hence the trail boss too
 
I use 4198 with the same projectiles no gas check. I tried between 37-40 grains. I settled on 39 ended up around 1600ish fps. You'll need to try it yourself as the barrel dimensions and such will vary. Is hoot these out of a job stamped marlin 1895 classic. For a plunking load I use 10 grains of titegroup. Lots of fun. My kids love it.
 
I have 2; 45-70's
A Baikal Double rifle
And a Marlin model 1895.
I reloaded some cast lead bullets [Lee molds] and some jacketed stuff.
Don't reload to high at first, the recoil will make you not want to shoot too much.[And sell your gun].
Start low with some lead loads till you get accustomized with the rifles.
Once in a while fire a few full loads, [just so you feel the power].
I find that my double rifle is a hoot to shoot.
I like to carry it when I put out bear bait.
The 1895 is really nice and I use when I go for rides on the ATV or the truck.
 
so by the sounds of it you are looking for mild loads. have a look at the hodgdon website, tons of load data.
for very mild loads look at the trapdoor load data listed on the hodgdon website.
 
Rickster66 said:
I use 4198 with the same projectiles no gas check. I tried between 37-40 grains. I settled on 39 ended up around 1600ish fps. You'll need to try it yourself as the barrel dimensions and such will vary. Is hoot these out of a job stamped marlin 1895 classic. For a plunking load I use 10 grains of titegroup. Lots of fun. My kids love it.
Click to expand...

Do you need a filler for 4198?
 
I use 32 grains of IMR 4198 with 405 grain bullets.
I get an accurate load going 1367 fps (chronographed) that gives 2" groups at 100 meters and is light enough in the recoil department that my wife (110 lbs) will shoot the rifle.
 
I use 4198 no filler, 38gr and works well with 405gr .358 or .359

I have a friend who gets good results with 3031 at around 1800fps (to much for me)
 
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Well Brno, you have so many powders on hand which are excellent for medium loads in the 45-70, but I will give a load I have for my own Marlin that would serve your purpose.
With bullets in the 400 grain weight class, about 42 grains of 3031 will give power equal to factory loads, in the 1,400 fps range (chronoed).
There are a lot of powders in the medium burning rate for rifles that are so similar, like 4895, 4064, Re 15, varget, the bit faster 4198s and some others, that similar weights of any of those will give excellent loads in the area of factory loads, meaning pleasant loads to shoot. I chose 3031 for my current loads, because I didn't seem to be using that powder in anything else!
No filler is required for any of these powders. In fact, even with low charges of Unique, like in the order of 12 grains, which would give groups in the two inch range at 100 yards, I couldn't prove to myself that a good filler made any advantage, whatsoever.
Also, gas checks are not needed in the 45-70, right up to loads that will be very uncomfortable to shoot. Their only advantage is that less flaring is needed on the case for loading them than is needed with flat base, so the cases will last a bit longer.
Bruce
 
Thank you so much guys. You've given me exactly the information I've been looking for. I assume it's best to keep the velocities of cast loads to under 1500 fps to avoid leading?

I also intend to slug my barrel shortly with a Size 8 - 3/8 oz egg sinker. When my Lee molds come in I'll see what size they drop and compare.

Waiting for a crimp die too (back ordered on amazon.ca). Will wait on the Lee sizer die to see if I actually need one.
 
From my own experience and reading about other results it depends a bit on the lead alloy. But yeah, 1500 to 1600 is pretty well the upper end for lead bullets to avoid leading up the bore. Past that you want to use gas checks, jacketed or even consider putzing around with paper patched rounds.

In a 45-70 though there's really no need for anything more than around 1400fps. Some time back on another forum it was pointed out to me that my lighter "plinking" .44Mag loads of a 240gn cast bullet traveling at around 1000 to 1050 fps would pass clean through a horse from end to end if I were to find myself needing to do such a thing. So a 400'ish grain hunk o' lead moving at around 1300 to 1500 isn't going to be stopped too early by too many things out there. Would you really need more than that?

If you have anyone that shoots round ball guns a .50 or larger size round ball works great for slugging the bore.
 
I've settled on 49 gr of varget under a hardcast 405 gr bullets. I get 1550 fps from one barrel 1500 fps from the other. Recoils like a 410 hits like a train. I do get a few un burnt sticks in the barrels but I'm lazy and 3 rifles use the same load so I don't change the powder measure
 
CZ_Brno said:
Thank you so much guys. You've given me exactly the information I've been looking for. I assume it's best to keep the velocities of cast loads to under 1500 fps to avoid leading?

I also intend to slug my barrel shortly with a Size 8 - 3/8 oz egg sinker. When my Lee molds come in I'll see what size they drop and compare.

Waiting for a crimp die too (back ordered on amazon.ca). Will wait on the Lee sizer die to see if I actually need one.
Click to expand...


Save yourself work and worry.
Do not slug your barrel and do not worry about leading the barrel of your Marlin.
I used to shoot silhouette competitions with big pistol and over those years I had five different 44 magnum revolvers that I shot extensively. plus I am on my second 44 mag Marlin rifle. My current 45-70 Marlin is also my second one.
I have never slugged any of their barrels and they all shot great with standard size cast bullets.
In spite of all that you have read, whether a barrel leads up or not, depends principally on whether the bore is microscopically rough, or whether it is polished smooth. Ruger once talked about this in the owners manual in one of their new 357 revolvers. If the barrel comes microscopically smooth it will be OK. If it leads, they stated that it would polish by shooting jacketed bullets in it.
The Marlin barrels are so polished smooth that no lead will collect in them. Don't create a problem where none exists and just shoot your cast bullets in your Marlin rifle.
 
Does the Marlin have that new fangled micro groove barrel or the full size rifling? I ask because over at Cast Boolits the guys have to nail the bullet size to make them work with the micro groove barrels far more than is needed with the regular style rifling. Apparently the micro groove works fine with jacketed but needs a snug fit to work with cast. That's what I got from the bits I read. You'll want to check this out for yourself to find out what rifling you have and what the concerns and factors are.... if any.
 
My new 1895gbl doesn't have mirco groove barrel but my old jm stamped 44 mag does. The 44 shoots much better with .433 than .430 cast bullets.
 
Marlins are all cut rifling nowadays, they said that the micro grooved rifling doesn't like lead bullets.
 
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I do a lot with 45-70. I like paper patched bullets. No leading issue, and lower felt recoil to me. For the 405, a full case of Varget works very well. Now, I'll tell you something you probably haven't heard before. I don't size the brass when loading cast or paper patched.... I use a universal decap die. I just slide the bullet into the case. If paper patched, it keeps the patches from tearing.

Instead of sizing, I use powder to hold the bullet forward, then use the sizing die with the decaping stem removed to close the mouth down on the bullet. No need for a crimp die. They cycle in the lever action just fine, repeatedly. For 300-350 gr projectiles, a full case of IMR 4064 works well...

Don't use the Lee expander die... It bulges the case if you full length size the case. See above.
 
i had the same ? you do,i took the advise from the guys on here ,i never slugged my Marlin 45-70 ,i cast my own 405 grain bullets from heel weights,lube them with the recipes from these guys , no gas checks,i use a lee mould i bought at wholesale sports,use Varget 44 grains
I have no lead fouling and they shoot fantasic.
 
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