Cost of registered sporting clays

[Covey Ridge]

jacpor,
Thanks for your post. It seems like good registered targets can be had for half the price of Alberta targets. I know there is a difference between us and the US but the typical Alberta price seems to us be a gouge. If our dollar holds I will plan for vacation south and for sure shooting south.

 

[dedbird]

Claybuster,

I'm sorry you have had bad experiences shooting registered trap and it was not my intent to open old wounds. I can only assume you did not shoot very well.


The topic posted was in regard to target prices. My point was to compare registered targets costs to non competion targets which are often less expensive.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Claybuster,

I'm sorry you have had bad experiences shooting registered trap and it was not my intent to open old wounds. I can only assume you did not shoot very well.
The topic posted was in regard to target prices. My point was to compare registered targets costs to non competion targets which are often less expensive.

Keith,
No matter what the topic was, why would you assume that?

 

[Scar270]

jacpor,
Thanks for your post. It seems like good registered targets can be had for half the price of Alberta targets. I know there is a difference between us and the US but the typical Alberta price seems to us be a gouge. If our dollar holds I will plan for vacation south and for sure shooting south.

I'm usually one of the ones complaining about being gouged, but from when I've been around the ranges in Alberta, shooting on non registered days for fun, they don't seem to be terribly busy.

If they could triple their business by cutting the $10, I'm sure they would do it in a heartbeat, but if they cut profits 20%, and only gain 5-10% more shooters, it doesn't pay.

When we can spend a nice saturday at a sporting clays range, and maybe see one other group, then calculate in that someone is maintaining the machines, has the capital invested, someone is sitting around to run the counter/clubhouse, I'm not really sure how they are making it as is. I'm sure reducing the price $10 a round would help, but would they get enough extra shooters to make up the difference.

To those who shoot in the US on non tournament days, how busy are their clubs? I find it tough to believe that with the wonderful courses we have around this province, that they are not more heavily used, but I don't know what it would take to get people out, and I don't think price is the biggest issue. Of course overall costs are an issue, but target price is only a small part of that.

We need someone to get people out shooting sporting clays instead of golfing, curling, swimming etc. I know a few clubs run league shoots, sort of like golf courses have a mens night, and I think that helps quite a bit, but how do you get these guys to bring clients out, or bring friends out, like they do in golf. Not too often I hear of a company sporting clays shoot, although it does happen, we need it to happen more.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Scar270,

I think that we are talking about 2 separate things? I have no problem with paying $40.00/100 at Brooks Clays and Feather or Silver Willow. It's a good bang for the buck. What I think is a gouge is them charging $145.00/200 for a registered shoot. If they are in business for $40.00/hundred or $80.00/two hundrerd, they should be able to run a no frills shoot at the same rate? It would be good week end business. Skip the lunch or charge for one, and skip the dusty medals, and prizes and let us shoot for the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. OOOPS, a day burning powder is never defeat. What I think is a gouge is that between them and the association the shoot price is outrageous and the only option is to shoot 200 targets.

 

[hnachaj]

200 targets for a registered shoot is a Western thing that in the infancy of registered clay shooting during the early 90s was found to be not a great idea. How many could spend two days shooting or the money for two day shoots? Not many! It was dumped early on in the 90s. Most registered shoots in NA cost over $1 per target and that does not include any lunch. The best for the bang shoots in the Northeast cost around $85CDN with either money by lewis class or money returned to NSCA class. Most ranges that provide great registered targets are privately owned and do not rely on volenteers. It takes several days of many manhours to set a new course for a shoot. This costs $$$. So one cannot expect to pay regular rates for a registered shoot besides the association fee.

The biggest difference in registered events and shooting a regular course? One is under pressure to perform well against others! I can shoot live birds many times better than clays during a registered event! But then, once in a while, I have my lucky days that all targets look like kingsize barrels. "It is better to be lucky, than good and unlucky!" My moto!

I pick and choose where I shoot. I prefer shooting in Europe over NA. It is usualy cheaper and the food and wine is better! There are no golf carts and one can have some wine or other libations at lunch! They don't like to shoot 500 or more side events per day, like in the US. FITASC Sporting or English sporting is very much like golf here, 4 hours or less and well dressed!

Regards,
Henry

 

[Covey Ridge]

Henry,
In our area the biggest difference between a registered event and a regular course is one day and $32.50. $1.00 targets?

 

[jacpor]

Dear Henry

I shoot in Washington State registered NSCA targets. They are no frills shoot. 100 targets cost $35.00 and a re shoot is $25.00 or $30.00. I can name at least 3 different clubs that are charging that amount. The really big shoot of course will cost you more but you don't have to attend those events. I usually shoot the Top Gun in Mount Vernon which charges $185.00 for 200 targets but it is an unbelievable event with all the bells and whistles but it is the only big one I attend. All the other ones are priced at very reasonable price, more or less the price of a 100 targets practice in BC.

 

[wynnston]

Only sporting clays shoot in NB that I know of is in Fredericton. 2 summer shoots (Beretta,Browning) costs $50/100 targets unregistered and includes ticket on gun draw ($3000) no lunch either. Has over 150 shooters and table of prizes. Top shooters pick first then random draw. Its a blast!

 

[Scar270]

Scar270,

I think that we are talking about 2 separate things? I have no problem with paying $40.00/100 at Brooks Clays and Feather or Silver Willow. It's a good bang for the buck. What I think is a gouge is them charging $145.00/200 for a registered shoot. If they are in business for $40.00/hundred or $80.00/two hundrerd, they should be able to run a no frills shoot at the same rate? It would be good week end business. Skip the lunch or charge for one, and skip the dusty medals, and prizes and let us shoot for the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. OOOPS, a day burning powder is never defeat. What I think is a gouge is that between them and the association the shoot price is outrageous and the only option is to shoot 200 targets.

Partly 2 things, and partly not, my question is would it boost the sport that much if the tournaments were no frills? If cheap shooting is what people want, they have lots of opportunities to do that outside of tournaments. Or is the thrill of competition and cheap shooting necessary?

I don't honestly know the answer which is why I'm asking. Cheaper tournaments wouldn't hurt my feelings, as I am not winning anything anyway, however I don't see it affecting how many tournaments I make, that tends to be much more dependent on timing and what other shooting I have going on, as I shoot much more then just shotgun. If it would make a difference to lots, then I'm interested in seeing it happen.

Another question is can a no frills tournament really be hosted for the same cost as regular shooting? Generally a tournament takes some advertising, having perhaps extra staff to either trap at the couple places using hand traps yet, or just to have staff filling and maintaining on a much busier then average day? Perhaps the increased number of shooters on that day, can easily absorb the added expenses, the club would certainly still be making money off of each shooter.

These are just questions I think need to come up in the conversation, I'm not so much disagreeing with you Covey, as just trying to spur more conversation, as I think it's a really good conversation, but we need to look at it from both a shooters and operators perspective, as both need to benefit, but growing the sport certainly does benefit both.

For 100 or 200 bird options, is that something easy to do? For a place like Brooks or Hidden Ridge, their courses are fairly laid out, if your going to walk them, I'd rather not walk them twice to shoot my 200. However most are using carts or motorized transport of some sort, so maybe it's not an issue.

Maybe if you had the 100 bird shooters just shoot half the course, but the same number of pairs per stand, so they just finish up earlier in the day, but 100 bird and 200 bird shooters could all go around at the same time and not interfere with each other.

I'm sure their are opportunities to make it work.

 

[Scar270]

Henry, why are you talking about 2 day 200 bird shoots? Any shoot I have ever been too that is 200 birds is a 1 day shoot, or is that how 200 bird shoots started out?

 

[hnachaj]

Yup, that is how they started 100 each day as they changed the targets for the Sunday. I never understood why someone would shoot 5 pairs at a station. Shoot skeet if you want that.

For the operators, just about ALL the shoots that I go to, have electric machines. They cost money! And when you have two per station and 16 or 18 stations for a hundred target event, IT COSTS MORE! The hand machine clubs use club FREE labour. A proper shoot hires staff and pays staff. Then, you have to depreceate the cost of the machines per shoot.

I have run and expensed International, National, Regional and numerous fund raising shoots. Ther eis not much to be made on sporting clays. One needs sponsors to make it profitable for both the club and others.

In the 80s when we were hosting major trap events, our cost was .21 per target. At $35 for a hundred sporting at a plublic event, is loosing money. There are so many costs invlolved: postage, staff, mechanics.......OVERHEAD


You really don't know all the cost in running a business.

Regards,
Henry

 

[Scar270]

Thanks Henry, I didn't know thats the way the shoots used to be.

I absolutely agree there is a lot of overhead in a sporting clays course compared to a skeet or trap range, more land, more machines etc.

I do see the point though that if you skipped the prizes and lunch, you could hold an event much cheaper without cutting into the profits.

I don't know whether I think the cheaper shoots would attract that many more shooters though. Since Tofield did try this, has anyone attended it, did they seem to get a much larger turnout for it?

 

[Covey Ridge]

Scar270,
I appreciate the conversation and even if we disagree, I will still think well of you because you are a shooter and enjoy the same sport I do.

I know of many who like to shoot and shoot well and would like to compete, but the cost is just too high. I also know some that are going to quit or cut down on competitions because of the cost. I also know that many do not care a rats butt about the prizes but like to get together for a good shoot, but feel that $65.00 for lunch is just too much.

I do think that no frills shoot can be hosted for the same amount or close to it. If 30 or 40 booked for practice, I am sure that the range owners would not turn many away and would be glad to provide targets because that is what the range is in business for. Maybe he would have to call in a few of his part time minimum wagers?

As far as the size of shoots go, for anything other than a provincial, why not two separate 100 target events? I have never seen much advertisement for registered shoots other than the shoot schedule each registered shooter gets and what is on line. Most newbies find out through the clubs they practice at and through other shooters. It's not a big deal for range operators.

Carts? Not a big deal for a small round about like silver willow. Come to think about it most shoots do 100 then break for lunch. After lunch they make a few small changes or hope the winds does it for them then we go around again. Brooks? Well unless you are young and limber you will cart it. I walked 200 once. I sometime wonder if the ranges are in the clays business or the cart rental business?

If it is just shooting, I would be happy with silver willow or brooks or side walk skeet at Calgary. That article in Sporting Clays just opened a wound that has been there for a while. Why does every registered shoot have to be National Championship length? Why does it cost about as much as a National Championship? I have taken prizes from as many shoots as those where I got nothing. Except when I have won a flat of shells, nothing ever comes close to the extra the shoot cost. I enjoy the lunch, but I should because it has been more than paid for.

NZClaybuster says that the association lets the clubs set the price. I hear association members, club members and shooters openly ask what needs to be done to attract new competators or keep the shooters they have. I suspect that shooting is cheaper in Washington and shoots in other parts of Canada are a better deal than Alberta. From the article in Sporting Clays I see that some clubs are trying to be part of the solution.
I think that the Alberta Association or the New Canadian Association and the range owners should also try to be part of the solution.

 

[Scar270]

Scar270,
I appreciate the conversation and even if we disagree, I will still think well of you because you are a shooter and enjoy the same sport I do.

Likewise I assure you, this is a great conversation and one that needs to happen by the sounds of it.

I know of many who like to shoot and shoot well and would like to compete, but the cost is just too high. I also know some that are going to quit or cut down on competitions because of the cost. I also know that many do not care a rats butt about the prizes but like to get together for a good shoot, but feel that $65.00 for lunch is just too much.

I don't deal with a whole lot of sporting clays guys, those I can't get to come shoot, I can't get to come shoot a round of 5 stand for $10 shells included so in my experience the price isn't the big deal. However if it is I'm all for cheaper shoots. As much as I don't think the price is keeping my shooting group away, I can also assure you, making it cheaper and cutting out the prizes etc wouldn't keep us away either. I do kinda like a lunch, because it keeps people around so you get to visit with fellow shooters, however as you said, they could probably do the lunch for $15-$20 and still make a little money on it.

I do think that no frills shoot can be hosted for the same amount or close to it. If 30 or 40 booked for practice, I am sure that the range owners would not turn many away and would be glad to provide targets because that is what the range is in business for. Maybe he would have to call in a few of his part time minimum wagers?

Certainly closely anyway, I'm just tossing out all the things I can think of from a operator's point of view, since we don't have any operators here doing so. I certainly don't know all the numbers, but I would agree you certainly don't need double the target price to run a tournament over practice.

As far as the size of shoots go, for anything other than a provincial, why not two separate 100 target events? I have never seen much advertisement for registered shoots other than the shoot schedule each registered shooter gets and what is on line. Most newbies find out through the clubs they practice at and through other shooters. It's not a big deal for range operators.

Carts? Not a big deal for a small round about like silver willow. Come to think about it most shoots do 100 then break for lunch. After lunch they make a few small changes or hope the winds does it for them then we go around again. Brooks? Well unless you are young and limber you will cart it. I walked 200 once. I sometime wonder if the ranges are in the clays business or the cart rental business?

Your right at Silver Willow it wouldn't matter, Brooks and Lloyd are a longer courses, I have not shot a registered shoot at Silver Willow, but at Brooks and Lloyd they were not the same course twice when I've been there, but 20 seperate stations, same at Tofield I believe. However as you say, not too many walk 200 bird courses, and most of the time from what I've seen people bring their own transportation anyway.

If it is just shooting, I would be happy with silver willow or brooks or side walk skeet at Calgary. That article in Sporting Clays just opened a wound that has been there for a while. Why does every registered shoot have to be National Championship length? Why does it cost about as much as a National Championship? I have taken prizes from as many shoots as those where I got nothing. Except when I have won a flat of shells, nothing ever comes close to the extra the shoot cost. I enjoy the lunch, but I should because it has been more than paid for.

NZClaybuster says that the association lets the clubs set the price. I hear association members, club members and shooters openly ask what needs to be done to attract new competators or keep the shooters they have. I suspect that shooting is cheaper in Washington and shoots in other parts of Canada are a better deal than Alberta. From the article in Sporting Clays I see that some clubs are trying to be part of the solution.
I think that the Alberta Association or the New Canadian Association and the range owners should also try to be part of the solution.

We certainly need more shooters in every shooting sport out there, if making it cheaper would help bring in more shooters, yet allow the ranges to keep their doors open, great. Like I said, I doubt staying the same, or making the changes you say will change the number of shoots I make. I have not heard anyone on here saying they won't come if their are no prizes, so from that aspect, if going to a no frills shoot won't lose shooters, and stands to gain, why not try it.

Aside from registered shoots, any thoughts on how to get more people out shooting otherwise? How do we draw people away from the golf course so to speak?

 

[Scar270]

Oh I should add, having 2 100 bird courses would be just fine with me as long as it's logistically doable. It might take a few changes in how things are done, but I can't see it being hard to do.

I think you need to have 200 birds available for those who want, but whether that 200 is broke up into 2 x 100 seems pretty well irrelevant to me, so if it can draw out more shooters, great.

I do know some people wouldn't even contemplate shooting 200 rounds of 12 gauge in a day, even if it was free, but I'm not sure if those would think about shooting a 100 either.

 

[Doug The Canuck]

Oh I should add, having 2 100 bird courses would be just fine with me as long as it's logistically doable. It might take a few changes in how things are done, but I can't see it being hard to do.

I think you need to have 200 birds available for those who want, but whether that 200 is broke up into 2 x 100 seems pretty well irrelevant to me, so if it can draw out more shooters, great.

I do know some people wouldn't even contemplate shooting 200 rounds of 12 gauge in a day, even if it was free, but I'm not sure if those would think about shooting a 100 either.

Having an additional SC course is a considerable expense. First you have to have the land, then you need 26-30 additional traps.

A morning/afternoon 200 bird event is manageable since all you need to do is move the traps or the shooting stands.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Having an additional SC course is a considerable expense. First you have to have the land, then you need 26-30 additional traps.

A morning/afternoon 200 bird event is manageable since all you need to do is move the traps or the shooting stands.

Then a morning 100 event and an afternoon 100 event is also manageable.

 

[Scar270]

Both Brooks and Lloyd are pretty much set up for a single 200 bird course already, so it would be just a matter of dividing the course in half, or shooting every other station once, then the other stations later.

If a club isn't set up for that, then you are absolutely right, I was basing my comments on where I shoot the most, and as you point out, they don't fit everywhere.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Aside from registered shoots, any thoughts on how to get more people out shooting otherwise? How do we draw people away from the golf course so to speak?

I do no want to draw people away from the golf course. I sure hope that those golfers are not trying to draw shooters away. I think that it is critical to keep the shooters we have. As far as competition goes, there should be more pure fun shoots at a reasonable cost and an attempt should be made to attract those who show up at gun clubs just to shoot practice. I think there should be more non registered shoots.

This year I paid for 1200 registered sporting targets and 600 non registered targets between silver willow and Brooks. Next year, God willing, I hope to shoot way more sporting targets, but I will probably limit my registered targets to about 3 shoots.