Yet still can't provide a single example...LOL indeed.
Covert case for NR Stag10/102
- Thread starter BullOnParade
- Start date
Yet still can't provide a single example...LOL indeed.
I'm not going beyond, and above, just respecting case law, and established precedents.
It is when we start getting cocky, and loosely follow what we 'think' should be ok to do, we start to open ourselves up to the fickle nature of the attending officers discretion.
With the way we all know the firearms act is, I don't just think, or feel my way through it. It makes no logical sense, and is often contradictory. I find out what the law actually is, how it has been enforced, and interpreted, and act accordingly.
My PAL is worth a lot more to me than just my collection.
It is when we start getting cocky, and loosely follow what we 'think' should be ok to do, we start to open ourselves up to the fickle nature of the attending officers discretion.
With the way we all know the firearms act is, I don't just think, or feel my way through it. It makes no logical sense, and is often contradictory. I find out what the law actually is, how it has been enforced, and interpreted, and act accordingly.
My PAL is worth a lot more to me than just my collection.
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I told you, if you want to search for that thread you will find the answer. I did my research then, and was satisfied with that knowledge. I don't have time to go searching everytime someone doesn't believe me.
Doesn't matter to me if you do, or don't. Doesn't matter to me if you put your gun inside a trombone case, or a Pellican. Has no affect on my life. You do you.
All I'm doing is letting you, and everyone know that someone tried that already, and faced consequences for doing it. We get these same rehashed threads regularly on the gun forums.
No one wants to do the searches themselves, and I've given up trying to change people's minds.
Search it for your own satisfaction.
So the answer is no, you cannot cite a single real world example of what you are suggesting is inevitable if the OP tries to be discreet. And the inference that Felawka even remotely resembles what the OP is describing is laughable.
Yes, and from that case it was determined that you did not require mens rea to be guilty of concealed weapons charges. In other words, despite his intentions to conceal for the reason of not making people nervous, he nonetheless concealed the firearm intentionally.
That met the requirements.
It could therefore be argued that doing something similar, like putting a gun inside an obviously guitar shaped case, that you were also, intentionally concealing the gun.
Doesn't matter why, only that you did so with the intention.
I never said anyone had been convicted of using a guitar case, I only referenced the blanket dude.
I’m sure plenty of things “could be argued” but Felawka was decades ago and there hasn’t been a guitar case precedent set in the interim. It “could be argued” that I had a spare guitar case and my only intent was to save a few dollars by using it instead of purchasing a gun case.
We will only know the answer for sure When there is a guitar case arrest made. I’m sure that’s going to happen any day now.
We will only know the answer for sure When there is a guitar case arrest made. I’m sure that’s going to happen any day now.
All one would have to do, if asked is never admit to knowingly intend to conceal.
You could say it was the only suitable case you owned, and so you used it.
To admit you intended to conceal is all that is needed to satisfy requirements for conviction.
It doesn't matter why you did it, just that you did, intentionally.
You could say it was the only suitable case you owned, and so you used it.
To admit you intended to conceal is all that is needed to satisfy requirements for conviction.
It doesn't matter why you did it, just that you did, intentionally.
To be fair, I wouldn't expect to find a gun in a 20 foot long case either.
BullOnParade
CGN Regular
- Location
- Eastern Ontario
Wait a second. The federally mandated Canadian Firearm Safety Course prescribes that when transporting in a vehicle without a locking trunk or similar storage area (such as an SUV or pickup) and leaving the vehicle unattended, a NR firearm should be covered by a blanket to prevent would be thieves from seeing it through the window ...
Back when I was in HS in the early 2000's me and the boys would go small game hunting after school. We would keep our shotguns in our trucks in the HS parking lot. One of my friends drove a motorcycle so he didn't have that option. He was a guitar player though, so he would break down his 12guage and stick it inside his soft guitar bag and put the shotgun in his locker in the school. No one was the wiser, but I would NOT suggest doing that in 2020. They shut down the school last year because someone found a couple live .22LR rounds on the floor. There is also a gun range in the basement of the school haha.
That’s right. They ORDER you to CONCEAL it
There is very clearly a huge distinction between concealing it on your person and concealing it in an unattended vehicle. Also the fact that the Firearms Act stipulates so overrides the offense of Carrying a Concealed Weapon in order to be compliant with the act.
Funny, I must have missed the memo where your word overrules Canadian law.
I really don't understand people's confusion. The law is pretty clearly written. All the information needed is available to the public.
You obviously haven't read through R. V Felawka to make a statement such as that.
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Here are some interesting excerpts from the case law.
In summary then, the requisite mens rea or mental element of s. 89 will be established if the Crown proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused concealed an object that he knew to be a weapon. In order to prove concealment it would have to be established that the accused took steps to hide the weapon so that it would not be observed or come to the notice of others.
A gun which is carried in a gun case will not be considered to be concealed. In the vast majority of cases, the gun carrying case will resemble the firearm itself so that it cannot be considered to be hidden. Further, wrapping a firearm in a blanket or canvas and securing it with rope as required by some provincial regulations should not be considered to be concealing the weapon. Again, in the vast majority of cases the wrapped weapon will still resemble a firearm and will not be considered to be concealed. Nor should the placing of a firearm in a locked trunk or out of sight in a locked and unattended vehicle in compliance with federal regulations be considered to be "carrying a concealed weapon" so as to infringe s. 89 of the Criminal Code. The regulation and the Code provision must be construed in a manner that avoids conflict and promotes the goals of both provisions.
Similarly, the shotgun which breaks down and is carried in a case that resembles a briefcase should not be considered concealed if the carrying case is clearly marked as a gun case. key point here for those that want to protect themselves
I would observe that not only would guns carried in carrying cases not be concealed but if transported in that way they will not cause the same malaise as would a naked weapon. It takes time to open a gun case, to bring out the gun and to load and use it. That is obvious to all and will ease the nervousness produced by an uncased gun.
Application of these Principles to this Case
There can be no doubt that the .22 calibre rifle carried by the appellant was a weapon. It was concealed. The appellant, knowing the .22 rifle was a weapon, took steps to hide it from observation by others. His excuse that he took the steps so as not to upset the other riders on the Skytrain cannot constitute a defence. If he had been truly concerned about the situation he would not have made the immature and frightening remark that he was off on "a killing spree". His actions and attitude could very well have had unfortunate consequences. -Keep in mind the gun was loaded as well. so.... it is very possible this case would have gone differently had the gun not been loaded, and he not joked about a killing spree.
Could a person complying with the provincial regulations be said to be in breach of s. 89? I think not. At a practical level, a gun case is a common place item that generally proclaims to all exactly what it is. In a great many instances, a gun case is sold with a hunting rifle or shotgun. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that a gun owner would not transport his or her gun in a case to prevent it from rusting and eventually malfunctioning. A gun case is in the shape of the firearm and thus cannot be said to conceal the weapon. It could be argued that some of the cases for carrying expensive shotguns used for skeet shooting or trap shooting competitions more closely resemble a briefcase than a gun case. This may be but these cases can and should be marked clearly as the carrying case for the shotgun. A gun in a case or tightly wrapped in canvas should not be considered to be hidden or concealed. It still looks like a gun and carried in that manner does not infringe the provisions of s. 89. Thus, complying with provincial regulations will not result in the gun owner being in breach of s. 89.
The regulations that cause greater difficulty are those that oblige the owner to place his gun in a trunk or luggage compartment -- a container that from the outside does not signal to the public the presence of a gun. Recently enacted federal regulations on the transportation of firearms stipulate that a person may transport a firearm in a vehicle that is not attended only if the firearm is unloaded and either locked in the trunk or is not visible from outside the locked vehicle: Storage, Display, Handling and Transportation of Certain Firearms Regulations, SOR/92-459, ss. 10(2), 12(2) and (3). In my view, this is a sound regulations whose purpose is clearly to prevent the theft of firearms from unattended vehicles. A stolen firearm can be misused and thus constitutes a grave danger to society. Compliance with this very sensible regulation should not result in a conviction for carrying a concealed weapon. Rather, it should be seen as an exception to the prohibition otherwise in place under s. 89.
That last line, used as defence case law in court, speaks volumes... If you argue that living in an apartment building, you chose to transport your guns in such a way as to not advertise to other people the nature of what was contained in your apartment, you are attempting to prevent theft of your property.... You meet the regulations for transport being a sturdy opaque container... and should you not be an idiot and have your gun loaded / joke about killing people, you will have no issue arguing that to a court.
Additionally, there are low profile gun cases, manufactured as gun cases.... some are in the shape of a guitar case... they are marketed as gun cases, do not fit guitars...
You show me a court that would argue that is not a gun case.
In summary then, the requisite mens rea or mental element of s. 89 will be established if the Crown proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused concealed an object that he knew to be a weapon. In order to prove concealment it would have to be established that the accused took steps to hide the weapon so that it would not be observed or come to the notice of others.
A gun which is carried in a gun case will not be considered to be concealed. In the vast majority of cases, the gun carrying case will resemble the firearm itself so that it cannot be considered to be hidden. Further, wrapping a firearm in a blanket or canvas and securing it with rope as required by some provincial regulations should not be considered to be concealing the weapon. Again, in the vast majority of cases the wrapped weapon will still resemble a firearm and will not be considered to be concealed. Nor should the placing of a firearm in a locked trunk or out of sight in a locked and unattended vehicle in compliance with federal regulations be considered to be "carrying a concealed weapon" so as to infringe s. 89 of the Criminal Code. The regulation and the Code provision must be construed in a manner that avoids conflict and promotes the goals of both provisions.
Similarly, the shotgun which breaks down and is carried in a case that resembles a briefcase should not be considered concealed if the carrying case is clearly marked as a gun case. key point here for those that want to protect themselves
I would observe that not only would guns carried in carrying cases not be concealed but if transported in that way they will not cause the same malaise as would a naked weapon. It takes time to open a gun case, to bring out the gun and to load and use it. That is obvious to all and will ease the nervousness produced by an uncased gun.
Application of these Principles to this Case
There can be no doubt that the .22 calibre rifle carried by the appellant was a weapon. It was concealed. The appellant, knowing the .22 rifle was a weapon, took steps to hide it from observation by others. His excuse that he took the steps so as not to upset the other riders on the Skytrain cannot constitute a defence. If he had been truly concerned about the situation he would not have made the immature and frightening remark that he was off on "a killing spree". His actions and attitude could very well have had unfortunate consequences. -Keep in mind the gun was loaded as well. so.... it is very possible this case would have gone differently had the gun not been loaded, and he not joked about a killing spree.
Could a person complying with the provincial regulations be said to be in breach of s. 89? I think not. At a practical level, a gun case is a common place item that generally proclaims to all exactly what it is. In a great many instances, a gun case is sold with a hunting rifle or shotgun. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that a gun owner would not transport his or her gun in a case to prevent it from rusting and eventually malfunctioning. A gun case is in the shape of the firearm and thus cannot be said to conceal the weapon. It could be argued that some of the cases for carrying expensive shotguns used for skeet shooting or trap shooting competitions more closely resemble a briefcase than a gun case. This may be but these cases can and should be marked clearly as the carrying case for the shotgun. A gun in a case or tightly wrapped in canvas should not be considered to be hidden or concealed. It still looks like a gun and carried in that manner does not infringe the provisions of s. 89. Thus, complying with provincial regulations will not result in the gun owner being in breach of s. 89.
The regulations that cause greater difficulty are those that oblige the owner to place his gun in a trunk or luggage compartment -- a container that from the outside does not signal to the public the presence of a gun. Recently enacted federal regulations on the transportation of firearms stipulate that a person may transport a firearm in a vehicle that is not attended only if the firearm is unloaded and either locked in the trunk or is not visible from outside the locked vehicle: Storage, Display, Handling and Transportation of Certain Firearms Regulations, SOR/92-459, ss. 10(2), 12(2) and (3). In my view, this is a sound regulations whose purpose is clearly to prevent the theft of firearms from unattended vehicles. A stolen firearm can be misused and thus constitutes a grave danger to society. Compliance with this very sensible regulation should not result in a conviction for carrying a concealed weapon. Rather, it should be seen as an exception to the prohibition otherwise in place under s. 89.
That last line, used as defence case law in court, speaks volumes... If you argue that living in an apartment building, you chose to transport your guns in such a way as to not advertise to other people the nature of what was contained in your apartment, you are attempting to prevent theft of your property.... You meet the regulations for transport being a sturdy opaque container... and should you not be an idiot and have your gun loaded / joke about killing people, you will have no issue arguing that to a court.
Additionally, there are low profile gun cases, manufactured as gun cases.... some are in the shape of a guitar case... they are marketed as gun cases, do not fit guitars...
You show me a court that would argue that is not a gun case.
Not only have I read it thoroughly I also met Justice Sopinka shortly after the ruling as a law student to interview him for a school radio program...we discussed Felawka for several minutes. I am confident in my understanding of the ruling.
hannibal.black98
CGN frequent flyer
Can anyone show me these famous approved and legal gun cases, marked as a "gun case" on the outside? ...the answer is ZERO, there are ZERO gun cases with "gun case 3000" printed on the outside of it.
What other legal property has more rules/laws when transported in a locked box for safety/convenience/protection of said item/s then when you can (technically) legally just carry it AS IS, provided it is unloaded?
Again...you are not carrying a folded down, loaded and ready to go SMG in a sling back where in one fast motion you can pull it out, extend the stock and start shooting...it is (probably) locked/triggered locked in a (probably) locked case...unloaded...just like most things people carry/travel with, using a case protects said items and makes traveling with them, easier...you are not HIDING it, you are carrying in the safest, smartest, most legal matter you can be.
What other legal property has more rules/laws when transported in a locked box for safety/convenience/protection of said item/s then when you can (technically) legally just carry it AS IS, provided it is unloaded?
Again...you are not carrying a folded down, loaded and ready to go SMG in a sling back where in one fast motion you can pull it out, extend the stock and start shooting...it is (probably) locked/triggered locked in a (probably) locked case...unloaded...just like most things people carry/travel with, using a case protects said items and makes traveling with them, easier...you are not HIDING it, you are carrying in the safest, smartest, most legal matter you can be.
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Found this on RedFlagDeals, not exactly covert, but at least its not rifle shaped:
VooDoo Tactical Padded Weapons Case for $166.75.
Not sure if its lockable. Could you use it if locked in a trunk with a trigger lock on the gun is non-restricted like the Stag?
VooDoo Tactical Padded Weapons Case for $166.75.
Not sure if its lockable. Could you use it if locked in a trunk with a trigger lock on the gun is non-restricted like the Stag?
Yes you can use it .
But you don't really need one if trigger locked in a locked trunk .
