"Cowboy" guns - caliber questions and make/model choices

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m102404

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While I'm not considering any competition type shooting at the moment...never say never, right?

"old west" guns have always had a lot of appeal for me so I'm looking hard at my next purchases and focusing in on a SAA revolver and a lever rifle.

Ideally, I'd like to shoot the same caliber in both...for now really just a matter of keeping things simple and as economic as burning money goes :). I reload a few different rounds already...so I'd be making my own eventually. So, I'm looking at 357mag and 45Colt. I've never reloaded or shot much of either.
- Any outstanding pro's/con's for either?
- Do you end up making up one set of loads for rifles and a different load for pistols...for whatever reason?
- IF down the road I ended up doing some cowboys shoots for fun...any issues with either calibers?

The S&W 686 has always been on the to-do list as well...so I'm leaning towards the 357mag.

So far as budgets go...having decent functional quality and durability is a must and while it's nice to have really nice things, savings for down the road and the rest of life are solid priorities so $/gun is a concern. Not necessarily looking for resale/inheritance value...don't plan on selling these.

Re. SAA pistols I've been looking at the Ruger New Vaquero or a Pietta 1873 Peacemaker. Both with 5.5" barrels vs. shorter. The S&W #3/schofields have always held appeal to me as well...but not sure if they're a solid one to start with.
- any considerations re. barrel length?
- any makes that are on the "don't buy unless you've considered..." list?

Re. the lever gun I'm leaning towards a Marlin 1894 (or 1894c) (I have a Marlin 1985G in 45-70 and really like it) and it seems like a decent bang for buck. Any issues with that choice? There's quite a few other makes and models choices (honestly I'm a bit lost with it)...which others to consider?

Lastly...I have always wanted a long range "Buffalo Gun"...and am torn between a Sharps and a High Wall, both in 45-70. Tang peep sight, 34-36" octagon barrel, etc... It's likely to be a long, long time before I'll have both...and am leaning towards the High Wall only because the looks are cleaner/simpler. Any downsides to going that way?

And again...having said all the above, if I ever did get into the cowboy action shoots, I'd hate to find out that I couldn't use something I had for this reason or that...so I figured this was the place to ask these questions.

Please and thanks for your replies.
 
Caliber; The most cost effective way to go is the .38spl and of course it can be shot out of any .357mag. It can be used in both Pistol and in Rifle although OAL can be an issue in the rifles.
Most will use the same load in both pistols and rifles. It is also very popular with the cowboy shooters and is accepted under SASS rules. I shoot 45/8 barrels a lot of folks shoot 51/2 I wouldn't worry much about that.
Pistol Choice;I have shot Rugers NM Vaqueros from the get go and they are tanks, low maintenance and dependable.
Piettas are well built and usually a tad less money I think it's safe to say that they are a good starter pistol.
Uberti has a good offering as well.
Schofields, Beautiful but way more expensive, repros are running at about $1200 each.
Rifle; I started with a Rossi Puma Model 92, great starter rifle, I'll reserve on Marlin because I don't know them.
I now shoot a Uberti Model 66, love the gun. The 1873 from Uberti is also a popular choice. In all cases you will want to get them worked on to make them race ready it does make a hell of a difference.

Don't want to comment on Buffalo guns, I don't know enough to make a reasonable recommendation.

Good luck and if you're ever in South East New Brunswick come and visit us at the Beaubassin Range Riders you can see CAS 1st hand.

Best of Luck,

Frenchy
 
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I can't comment on the Marlins either but I can on the Rossi and Uberti. The fit and finish on the Rossi's are not fantastic but the function great and are a blast to shoot. The M92 action for me is just about as good as it gets. The Uberti's are gorgious rifles and in my opinion worth the money for the extra refinements they offer over the Rossi if you like you guns pretty.

Caliber, I would go with the 45 colt or the 44-40. Just because it feels more true to the original cowboys.
 
If you are interested in Cowboy Action shooting in the future, go to the SASS website, download the shooters manual and find out which categories you can shoot with which firearms. Once you have the category established that you are interested in, then ask specifics about different rifles. NEVER put the cart before the horse as progress is difficult to achieve.
 
Hi: When I started I was leaning toward 45 colt because it seemed more "cowboy" and some people with experience recommended 38 sp. and I
am really glad I went with it. Easy to reload, easy to shoot, and "easier" to find components. There is tons of brass around, it is hard to find brass for some of
the calibers. Even experienced reloaders tell me that 44-40 is hard to reload.
 
44-40 is no more difficult to load than anything else. Just don't ham fist your press, or a misaligned case will be ruined. The lack of carbide dies is the only minor issue, but spray lube works fine and the thin casings resize easily.

45 colt is no great hell either, with brass available from a few site sponsors, and often at wholesale sports as well. I even bought Speer lead bullets at wholesale before finding a local guy who resells the cactus plains cast bullets for half the price.

The only issue I have with 45colt is that the brass is so heavy that the chambers never seal properly, gunking up the action, which makes black powder a nightmare. I suspect I will try annealing a batch to see if that helps.

44-40 would be more black powder friendly. My cases come out of my pistol clean and shiny.
 
I also reload for 45 and 44-40 and I'm not sure what all the issues are? I have never had anymore problems with them then any other cartridge I load for. Also never had a problem finding components for either. I say go for it if you like the idea of a more traditional cartridge.
 
I've been looking more into the 45 Colt cartridge...great point about the thick cases and sealing, wouldn't have considered that. The smoke and smell of black powder certainly appeals to me as well.

I reload (currently and in the past) 9mm/45-70/30-06/308/22-250/6ppc so the generalities of reloading/etc don't worry me much. I figure the costs and finding/sourcing components won't be much different than any other reloading efforts.

Re. the checking out the rules...I had gone to the SASS site and read through their current rule book (fairly quickly). It was quite thorough but I'll have to go back through it and see if there was anything specific about a given make/model. Thanks for that.

Still torn between calibers...I'm going to see if I can't find someone local who'll let me try some shots out. I've got this nagging feeling that I'm going to end up with guns in both calibers....
 
Where are you located at? Our local Cranbrook club is having a cowboy shoot on Sunday, there will be 38's, 44-40's and 45 's there if you are close by come and check it out.

For the rifle I recommend the Uberti 73, I have owned and seen the Marlins shot a lot but the 73 seems to run better. I also am a huge fan of the 92's but for serious competition I run a 73
For the revolvers as mentioned above the Rugers are by far the most popular. I started with Piettas but quickly upgraded to the Rugers and also have never looked back. I shoot with a guy in Montana that used the Schoefields he likes them but they are expensive. As to barrel length the shorter barrels are faster (marginally) to draw but as we age the longer barrels seem to be easier to find that front sight.

I also wont comment on the Buffalo gun as I don't know enough

As for caliber you can't go wrong either way. I have a set of 357's and a set of 44 specials. My advice buy the rifle first then get the revolvers to match good luck Jed
 
Thanks for the invite! But I'm in Toronto so it'd be a heck of a road trip (fun though!).

I'm definitely going to have to do more research but the suggestions here so far have been great.
 
Il comment solely on the buffalo guns except to say I have a marlin 1894 CB in 357 and like it alot, so much that its replaced my 22.

Il start off by saying all the ones that shoot well will be expensive, you can get a peice of crap that looks the part for under a grand. A good, reliable and accurate "buffalo gun" type of single shot will cost you.

Shooting the single shots is a labour of love, you have to reload for them to use the big bullets they were designed to shoot. You also have to cast your own bullets for them. Cheap way to start is get a lee pot, lyman 457125 government round nose mold and a casting ladle, pan lube em. You dont need black powder to shoot them well, reloder 7 gives very good accuracy.

On top of the price of the gun, add 300-700 bucks for a descent tang sight as the ones that are sold as a package deal with the italian guns are junk. Heres a few thoughts on choosing your buffalo gun.

Sharps 1874-The Sharps rifles break parts, they break lever springs and the odd firing pin. You're going to need to replace parts on them, so consider this before you sink 2 large into a Pedersoli with no warranty when you can buy a base model made in the US for 2300 and have warranty and free replacement parts for life. If you're going to spend the big dollars for a new sharps, theres no reason to get a pedersoli unless you get a good deal on one. All the other Italian makes are such cheap junk its not worth the money to gamble that you might get a "good one". Way back when they were state of the art, the Sharps cost 2-3 times what a lever action repeater cost so nothings really changed.

Winchester 1885 Highwall-The real winchester highwalls and the US repros are simple, durable and expensive. The japanese ones have a complex trigger, but you shouldn't be taking them apart anyways, moderately priced and reliable. Very nice actions.

Rolling block-Pedersoli makes an excellent rolling block, they're durable, dont break parts and are the cheapest quality single shot to get into shooting. If I were starting out again I would buy a new pedersoli John Bodine, it will hold its own as far as accuracy and looks go. A shooting buddy of mine outshoots me more then I want to admit with his pedersoli roller.

Theres others actions, but these are the most recognizable ones. Dont fall into the trap of getting a rifle chamber in the longer (and more visually impressive) cartridges, at least not for your first single shot. Be aware that the heavy bullets will result in some noticeable recoil, you dont want to shoulder the gun wrong and end up bouncing it off your collar bone because it will bruise you. For the same reason don't end up buying a 45-110 in a 9 lb gun, or one that was a crescent butt plate and expect it to be comfortable to shoot prone. Something at least 12 pounds with a pistol grip, cheek rest and a shotgun buttplate will be more comfortable to shoot in a 45-70, it doesn't look as cool but you'l be able to shoot it acurately because you wont develop a flinch. And more importantly you'l always enjoy shooting the gun. I tried a few of my 535 grain sharps loads in my winchester 1886 (7.5lb gun), the recoil is obscene.

Do not get a 34-36 inch barrel, I have a 32 inch in a shiloh sharps and wish it was 30. Honestly, a 28 inch round barrel in 45-70 would cover targets, competition and hunting.

They are not an instant gratification type of rifle to shoot, you'l spend quite some time fidgeting with loads, bullets and powders. Keep this in mind because you will spend alot of time at the reloading bench. For shear fun value a pistol caliber lever action can't be beat, they're not terribly picky in what you feed them, a pound of powder will load several hundred cases, reloading the shells is very simple. The buffalo gun is more for when you want to sit down for awhile and tinker.

Expensive guns to buy and to feed, 45-70 brass runs around a buck a peice (but lasts forever), a pound of blackpowder will load around 100 shells. Consider the purchase of one of these guns carefully. Pick one thats comfortable to shoot, not one that looks cool.
 
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I run a pair of New Vaqueros and an Uberti 1866 Yellowboy and couldn't be happier with either. Because of the Uberti only being able to run .38sp I use that in the pistols too. I don't reload so the .38 is a good choice for both price and low recoil. I also recently picked up a Cimmaron (Uberti) 1873 sporter with the 24" barrel in .357 that I will be using for both Buffalo matches and as a back up to the 1866.

This stuff is not cheap but it's worth the money and will last and last and last.......

By the way, if you do get into competition you will also need a shotgun. Stoeger sxs 12g coach gun is a popular choice.

The Rugers
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The Yellowboy
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The collection out for cleaning (1873 at the front)
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A good buddy of mine shoots .45Colt and I do the .38/.357 side of it.

Reloading components at the moment cost him 23 cents per round and myself 17 cents per round. The 6 cents a round does add up when you consider shooting a lot for matches and practice.

Both reload just fine and with a little care it's a rare thing to lose any brass. And with the light to medium power loads the cases last darn near forever.

Yes, it's a very nice idea to standardize on one caliber and load one style of ammo. I don't recommend mixing them unless you really get a good deal on something.

Components seem hard to find but once you're in with the cowboy shooting community you quickly find your regular sources and then it's not an issue.

For the rifle by far the best option for match shooting is the Uberti 1873 style with the slicking up kit that makes it so well suited to cowboy action shooting. The Winchester 92 or the Rossi clone of the 92 require a lot of little fixes and mods to cycle well. And even when done well it can still stick now and then. But if you don't want to spend north of $2500 on a rifle (rifle and fixes) the slicked up Rossi is an option. I haven't looked at the 1866 rifles for cowboy shooting but there are not a lot being used by the folks in my group so I'm assuming there are issues with that style of action.

When you get your pistols you'll want to find a load and bullet you like and stick to it. The front sight blades arrive in a too tall size and it's expected that you'll settle on your shooting style and ammo load and carefully file and reshape the blade down to the right height to match POA to POI. But this means you can't jump around with your ammo after that. So work the blades down a little at a time and try some different loads until you get one you like. In my case I settled on a 130gn cast bullet that is popular locally since it's about $6/500 cheaper than the 158gn options and it has a nose shape that works well in my Rossi rifle.

The Rossi does need the full length .357casings to cycle well when pushed at high speeds used for cowboy shooting. But I don't have a whole lot of magnum casings compared to my .38Spl casings. So on my side of it I do make up different loads for the rifle and pistols. But if you will be buying from scratch then I heartily recommend that you just go with all .357 cases for both rifle and handguns.

My load for the handguns is 3.9gns of Tightgroup behind the 130gn LRNFP bullets. This produces a sporty mid power .38Spl power. I don't like shooting poofy loads so I opted for a little more "life" out of the guns to add to the fun. But a more typical "gamer's" load would be down around 3.4 gns that loafs along at around 850fps. In the rifle I bump this up to 4.1gns to make up for the extra volume.

Even if you don't get into cowboy action shooting the revolvers are very pleasant on the eyes and fun to shoot for basic target work. The smooth frame top and neatly rounded front sight blade look SOOOOOO much more attractive than the cobbly looking lumps found on the adjustable sight guns like the Ruger Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk. I realise that you get a lot more versatility for that added lumpiness but it sure does take away the sleek look of the neatly made SAA gun.

And for center fire fun it doesn't get much better than a lever gun for plinking at 50 and 100 yards. And with the speed of the .357Mag bullets reading out to 200 is more than likely with about 6 to 8 inches of hold over. For this sort of use a lightly slicked up Rossi is just about as good as it gets thanks to the light and compact size.

Watch the barrel length on the 92. You need to get a 20 inch barrel or longer to ensure the magazine tube can hold the full 10 rounds needed for cowboy action. The 16 inch models won't even hold 10 .38Spls. Let alone 10 .357Mags.
 
I'm glad you took the time to look through the manuals before you buy. Years ago I bought a Winchester M97 Trench gun as the non affiliated club I was shooting at during that time had the attitude "A Model 97 is Model 97, is a Model 97. This worked fine until I shot at a SASS afiliated club where everyone started whispering "He's got an illegal shotgun"!

It really doesn't matter if you buy a rifle/pistol combination in .38 Spl/.44 Mag/.45LC, just buy a caliber that shoots straight walled casings as they are easier and faster to reload in large quantities and this sport can be addictive.

As for long range buffalo guns, I dearly love my Shilo Sharps #3 Sporting Rifle in .45-70 and it is more than worth the $3,000.00 that I spent on it. Unfortunately in almost 8 years I have attended only 3 matches that offer a long range side match that I had spare time enough to participate in (and I shoot 15-25 matches a year in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Wyoming, Montana & Arizona. Hope you enjoy shooting this discipline, there are far nicer people that participate in Cowboy than you will meet in some other disciplines.
 
Thanks (again!) for all those detailed answers...much more than I was hoping for.

Although things are clearer than ever before...I am more on the fence than ever before if that makes any sense. It's nice to know that there's more than one solid way to go with things.

Lots to digest...and lots to follow up on.

Thanks!

Re. the question of why not the 44-40...no special reason other than I knew/know very little about it.
 
The .44-40 is not a straight walled case, so you will need to lube the case for re-sizing. A straight walled case can use a carbide re-sizing die, which means you won't have to lube them. Plus .44-40 ammo costs just as much as, or more than, .45 Colt. .38 cal. would be your best choice, for availability of components, and costs.
 
Cowboy Action is a lot of fun and well worth the effort to get into the game.

Caliber, I would go with the 45 colt or the 44-40. Just because it feels more true to the original cowboys.

I agree with going 45 or 44-40 for authenticity. To be totally authentic it would be 45 pistols and 44-40 rifle. 38 is a mite cheaper, but once you are set up in a caliber the only other significant difference might be in the cost of the lead bullets depending on the supplier. If you cast your own even less difference.

For most of us, the 38 is for the intensely competitive gamers who want no recoil or bucking up with the handgun so that they do not have to re-align when shooting the targets. Personally, I like the extra kick noisier report and smoke from a decently loaded 45.

Advice on gun choices has been well covered already. Some are much easier to acquire than others

I started with and still use Vaqueros, a Henry Big boy rifle (was in stock when I started gearing up) both in 45 and a Stoeger double shotgun in 12 gauge. Also have a Mod 97 shotgun paired with Remington 1911 pistol and still use the Big boy for the rifle for Wildbunch which we are just introducing at our Club. I am on a waiting list for a newly minted Winchester 73 in 45 cal built by Mirouku in Japan for Winchester.

Personally I am not into tuning my guns to be faster. I'll never be that fast. My observation from watching others is that the modified guns are more likely to give trouble than those that are left as manufactured.

Take a peek at http://www.valleyregulators.com and/or http://www.flickr.com/photos/111254817@N03/sets/. We have constructed a western theme town for our Cowboy Action fun.
 
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