Cowboy Holster quals

stormbringer

stormbringer

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What does Cowboy shooting (SASS) do in terms of holster qualification courses?


Some folks are looking at brining cowboy to EESA and this will be one of the questions that needs to be addressed.
 
Nothing formal that I know of at the SASS organization level. Gunfighter class has a safety qualification to go tru before competitors are allowed to shoot a match(even for experienced cowboy shooters). This is more of a demonstration of shooting properly with a pistol in each hand at the same time and not shooting yourself in a wrist or hand. Some people have a tendancy to pull one hand back (usually the weak hand) while cocking the pistol and firing while the other arm is still fully extended out ahead of the bore of the firing pistol. We have to make sure that they keep both guns fully extended until empty and re-holstered.

No doubt some clubs have holster qualifications at a local level. At our club we have a safety meeting before every shoot. New shooters are identified and thier equipment checked to make sure it conforms to the regs.. When they are assigned to a posse marshal he is made aware of the situation. He and the deputy and other experiencd shooters will tudor the new shooter thru thier first few stages, never more than a 1/2 arms length away. We will continue to monitor in an unobtrusive manor until we (most of all), and the shooter are comfortable with the operation. Even shooters that have shot other diciplines (such as ipsc,steel challenge, etc.) for years get this treatment.
 
When I started cowboy action shooting about 15 years ago, you were'nt allowed to draw & shoot from the holster unless you had some sort of holster qualification. That's why I went and got my black badge. (This is Southern Ontario, I'm speaking of). Nowadays, it's just internally regulated. New shooters are encouraged to go at a slow, controlled pace, and muzzle direction is critical. If a shooter breaks 170 degrees, it's a Stage DQ, twice is a Match DQ, etc. Consistent dodgy gun handling, will earn an invitation to shoot elsewhere until an appropriate safety course is taken and passed. We all understand that all it takes is one accident to lose our sport, and thus in CAS everyone is a "safety officer". For the most part, everyone plays within their abilities. It's just for fun after all.
 
stormbringer said:
What does Cowboy shooting (SASS) do in terms of holster qualification courses? Some folks are looking at brining cowboy to EESA and this will be one of the questions that needs to be addressed.
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I hopefully helped with this in our emails & I am only posting here to counter some misinformation presented below.

fingers284 said:
Nothing formal that I know of at the SASS organization level. Gunfighter class has a safety qualification to go tru before competitors are allowed to shoot a match(even for experienced cowboy shooters). No doubt some clubs have holster qualifications at a local level.
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There in no holster qualification under SASS, as that is the US governing body, and will not allow other bodies under that to exist, if you are SASS its with them under their auspices. There is no holster qualification under the CPCA which is the Canadian governing body of PPC. I believe a simple holster course should be just part of the CSSA club level safety course for an ATT, since you are already taking the course. Your points are correct that every shooter is treated the same in that they are watched over by no less than 6 specifically observing people. This thing about gunfighter must be just your club. I don't believe this to be a SASS thing. I am a SASS RO and have never heard that, or witnessed that in practice. In general though, since people don't want to loose, people will likely become proficient in one of the other styles first. Me, I am shooting double dualist before I move to gunfighter (as well as wildbunch). All aspects of holster safety are to be gone over in the safety meeting, thus treating all shooters as equals.

tumbleweeds13 said:
When I started cowboy action shooting about 15 years ago, you weren't allowed to draw & shoot from the holster unless you had some sort of holster qualification. That's why I went and got my black badge. Nowadays, it's just internally regulated. and thus in CAS everyone is a "safety officer". For the most part, everyone plays within their abilities. It's just for fun after all.
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Most of your points are correct. Holster usage has always been a club issue to my knowledge. When action sports were new, all these ranges had no idea about people wearing holsters so they were scared. That is where the whole term "Holster Certified" came from. Your black badge for Cowboy is like getting a pilots license to ride a bicycle. While the BB has holster elements, the BB is all about safe shooting and manipulation while on the move, whereas in SASS, you can't move with a loaded gun. It is like comparing Apples to Freight Trains. SASS has always been regulated by SASS. The statement that "in CAS everyone is a safety officer" is absolutely not true, no offense intended. There is a reason why some of us take the RO1 and RO2 courses from SASS, and the RO2 until recently was only able to be taken in the USA. The SASS RO courses teach you what and how to show people, about the rules and how to make shooters safe. It teaches you what to watch for without any of the bad habits. While everyone is expected to help out, it is the SASS RO's that make the match safe and fun.

Stormy, really no one on here is going to be able to tell you any differently than I have. SASS has no requirement and offers no course for this specifically. SASS offers 3 main courses that I am aware of; 1)the SASS RO1, 2) the SASS RO2, and 3) the SASS RO2 instructor course. Also a lot of the SASS champions also offer shooting clinics. I will be lucky enough to be taking one with "Evil Roy" this summer. Like we talked about, it is the static shooting line and everything else we discussed that makes a cowboy holster just a "staging table" for the gun while shooting and a "rifle rack" for the gun when you are not. I know you are looking for input but since there is no such thing in SASS, all you can ever get is what has happened at other peoples clubs. Some of those clubs may be SASS affiliated and some may not. Recall I mentioned about another group that is doing something called tactical cowboy where they run around like IPSC but using cowboy guns, these guys for the most part have no BB, and in their case it should be needed, or at least the IDPA one. I believe those who are interested to start Cowboy at the EESA will be best to take the rules I have provided and the steps I have laid out and use that for the presentation & explanations. There is also the other things I mentioned in one of my last emails, that I don't want to mention on here.

If you or those wishing to start it would like the contacts for other SASS cowboy clubs, email or PM me and perhaps they can tell you how they handled this. I am sure they would be glad to discuss it with you, most are very willing to help get another SASS club up and running. There is also the http://osasf.ca/ which has a bunch of info and contacts.
 
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in SASS, you can't move with a loaded gun.

Actually it's, "you can't move with a loaded, cocked gun". Once the gun is cocked it must be fired before you move. However if the hammer is down on an empty chamber, or a fired cartridge, movement is fine. I've been to SASS Regionals that required movement between pistol shots, however, the R.O. kept a real good eye on your muzzle direction.
My comment about everyone being a safety officer is out of the SASS shooters handbook: "Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer." This is different than being a R.O. We are all charged with watching out for each other. If anyone is tactfully approached by anyone with a polite concern about how they shoot, we're encouraged to accept the constructive critisism (sp?) in the spirit in which it's intended. Park the ego at the range gate as it were. Cheers
 
Sorry, too early for me to read so much above - I'm sure it's all good, but I'll throw my 2 cents in as a non-cowboy-but-gun-club-president.

My club had a guy try to start up his version of cowboy shooting and after a couple comments from concerned members, I and my board put a stop to it.

He was setting up courses of fire with close junk steel (concave would be putting it mildly) , allowing 30-30s, modern revolvers shot single action only, running with guns in slick cowboy boots, starting with 6 in the chamber in the holster and of course, all with no formal certification or training for the participants. :slap:

His concept of Cowboy Shooting was basically IPSC / Multigun with no semi autos and cowboy hats.

Reading the SASS rule book made us much more comfortable and we decided that if the guys would follow SASS rules (decent steel, pistol cal. carbines, staged guns, single actions starting with empty chambers, etc.) we were comfortable with the safety levels involved.

The original organizer bailed (didn't like having to follow SASS rules), but we got some good guys in and haven't worried about it since.
 
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tumbleweeds13 said:
in SASS, you can't move with a loaded gun.

Actually it's, "you can't move with a loaded, cocked gun". If anyone is tactfully approached by anyone with a polite concern about how they shoot, we're encouraged to accept the constructive critisism (sp?) in the spirit in which it's intended. Park the ego at the range gate as it were. Cheers
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Yes, that is what I meant about the loaded gun, round in the chamber under a cocked hammer. Exactly. Yes I agree, people should be open to help and input, it makes it better for everyone. Exactly, park the ego at the door, and no fowl language, there are ladies with guns present :).

Freedom Ventures said:
Sorry, too early for me to read so much above - I'm sure it's all good, but I'll throw my 2 cents in as a non-cowboy-but-gun-club-president.

My club had a guy try to start up his version of cowboy shooting and after a couple comments from concerned members, I and my board put a stop to it.

He was setting up courses of fire with close junk steel (concave would be putting it mildly) , allowing 30-30s, modern revolvers shot single action only, running with guns in slick cowboy boots, starting with 6 in the chamber in the holster and of course, all with no formal certification or training for the participants. :slap:

His concept of Cowboy Shooting was basically IPSC / Multigun with no semi autos and cowboy hats.

Reading the SASS rule book made us much more comfortable and we decided that if the guys would follow SASS rules (decent steel, pistol cal. carbines, staged guns, single actions starting with empty chambers, etc.) we were comfortable with the safety levels involved.

The original organizer bailed (didn't like having to follow SASS rules), but we got some good guys in and haven't worried about it since.
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This is what I mentioned about the tactical cowboy guys that we are trying to prevent from ruining our good name. The SASS guidelines are excellent and make for a safe and fun shooting experience. I am glad you got rid of the guys that didn't want to play the game safely and got those in who will adhere to the governing body of SASS. We need to keep our sport on track and safe.
 
If anyone could do mounted in Ontario it would be EESA. There are no projectiles in SASS Mounted, it is the hot powder that pops the balloons. I thought I heard the Orillia club does this.
 
There is no holster qualifications per se in CAS. There are 2 levels of safety training. Range Operations 1 contains the basics, what is expected of the competitors, basic safety rules, and how a posse works thru a stage and match. The RO2 course is more involved, it teaches timer operators and Posse Marshals how to guide shooters safely thru a stage. Neither one of these courses is any near as comprehensive as a Black Badge course, however in CAS the RO/TO is encouraged to coach shooters thru the course of fire. The CAS RO mantra is to assist the shooter safely thru the stage. Coaching is not only allowed it is encouraged. To cover their saftey requirements, some of the Clubs here in BC make it mandatory for new members to pass the RO1 after they participate for a short time. There is, however, a problem with RO instructors in Canada at this time, due to a SASS policy change, on who can instruct a course. We are working on getting more instructors in areas that have none, I am currently working with Hipshot and the SASS RO committee to get more qualified people in place.
 
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That would be nifty as well. Both Dad and I have years of experience with horses. We used to run a trail ride business many moons ago. Had about 60 of the nags. Mostly quarter, a couple standard breeds, my Dad had a heavy horse, quarter horse cross and my main mare was an arabian quarter cross (she was a very tempermental girl). Had a few Quarter Horse race horses doing the circuit back then too. A couple studs. You get a good barrel racing horse and you are halfway there. We'd figure out a way to do the SASS Mounted RO course to help out. That would give Pa an excuse to get him self another horse. Sounds like a new expensive hobby is about to come about.
 
Mounted is being done here according to one of the CAS gents I talked to on the weekend.
He told me that they use wax "bullets" that are not classed as projectiles.
That folks,is called a loophole!

I have horseflesh aplenty if yer in need.
 
No loophole, that implies a way to get away with doing something wrong. I thought the wax projectiles were used for quick draw, which isn't done much in Canada.
 
BrotherRockeye said:
Mounted is being done here according to one of the CAS gents I talked to on the weekend.
He told me that they use wax "bullets" that are not classed as projectiles.
That folks,is called a loophole!

I have horseflesh aplenty if yer in need.
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I think you better check that information about using wax bullets for mounted CAS.
 
stormbringer said:
I understood that they used wallnut shells mixed in with the powder.
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There are actually several different things I believe. The setup that is like barrel racing where the stage is basically 3 barrels and the rider and horse do the traditional barrel course with shooting at balloon in and around the barrels. That is just the hot powder popping the balloons. This is because there likely can't be a backstop in every direction. The times where a backstop (even just an improvised one) can be present, like a stage that requires hitting targets in front of a "town", I think is where the walnut shell as extra projectile comes into play.

I am pretty sure that wax is only for fast draw (which again is not seen around here much).
 
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