CQB rifles

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm more of an internet ninja than a mall ninja, but I think FA 9mm is more controlable than 5.56. Is it? Hell, I don't know, that's just my perception from the few and rare occasions I've been able to shoot them.

And strictly speaking, and no offense to anyone, just because someone uses a particular tool and is very experienced with it, and hasn't observed any problems with it, doesn't mean that it is the absolutely best tool. Sure it may work just fine, but maybe there is a better alternative. But I'm not saying there is...

If a cop has carried a 38 for 40 years and all seven times he's had to shoot someone it's worked no problem, would you take his word as law that 38 is an acceptable cartridge?

I won't comment on whether I think SMG's or short barreled assault rifles are more effective because I don't know. I think the only people who should would be the ones who have done the balistic tests. Maybe look at those before calling names.
 
Thank you Big Red and Kevin B for settling the issue. Peter Kokalis is an idiot after all, and no doubt one or both of you will soon forward your resume to Small Arms Review, so that he might be relieved of his duties and replaced by someone with unimpeachable credentials in the field.

I guess the SMG is a worthless and obsolete item that has long been superseded by short barrel assault rifles. My recollection is that the XM177 came out in around 1967. Funny how the MP5 SMG continued in production since that date. Apparently, not everyone agreed with the two of you that it was obsolete. No doubt that is due to the large number of fools in this world, and the limited number of people who have read the RCMP and FBI reports you recite in your favor.

In retrospect, look at those buffoons in the British SAS during the Embassy Siege in London, 1980. Short barreled assault rifles had been out for decades, and yet the losers in the SAS chose to use MP5 SMGs to storm the embassy. Perhaps it was because the SAS commandoes had failed to “hit the gym or the ice cream stand at the DFAC to put on some weight.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne3ClrcuW30&feature=related

I know a quick way to resolve this issue once and for all. If Kevin B and Big Red would forward the video of their most recent hostage rescue to Utube, then special forces communities of the world will swap their MP5s for M4s and we can live happily ever after. And their will be no need for me to hurt anyone’s feeling again.

One might think that Kokalis and others had a point in that for instinctive, close quarter combat, where precise aim is either not possible or not practical, short controlled bursts of pistol ammunition makes it easier to make hits on multiple targets.

I recall Kokalis and others set up a typical room clearing exercise, where shooters ran through an obstacle course, firing at targets as they went, and then stopped to engage multiple targets at close range. For this type of work, no short barrel assault rifle could compete with an SMG, simply because recovery time between bursts was too great for the AR. And among the SMG’s, no SMG could beat the Sterling for instinctive shooting while on the run. It was ideal for room clearing. Even from the open bolt, the Sterling could be fired from the hip in short bursts that often stitched the target with multiple hits. This was impossible with a short AR, as the longer weapon was harder to fire instinctively from the hip, and subsequent rounds in the bursts went all over hells creation, due to the effects of recoil.

Finally, I do apologize to Big Red, and all the other members of the Special Forces community serving in Iraq. My thinking was that hardened veterans serving in a combat zone could stand the sort of rough language I dispensed. Sorry, I guess under that tough exterior, you combat soldiers have feelings too. I certainly meant no disrespect to you and your commando friends.


BB
 
Last edited:
I guess I need to watch more youtube and start hipshooting, first I better come up with a new nickname...
something really evil sounding :evil:
:popCorn:
 
Bigbill said:
Even from the open bolt, the Sterling could be fired from the hip in short bursts that often stitched the target with multiple hits. This was impossible with a short AR, as the longer weapon was harder to fire instinctively from the hip, and subsequent rounds in the bursts went all over hells creation, due to the effects of recoil.
Click to expand...

What are you smoking? Are you actually arguing its better to clear a room firing from the hip? WTF:eek::runaway:


Bigbill said:
One might think that Kokalis and others had a point in that for instinctive, close quarter combat, where precise aim is either not possible or not practical, short controlled bursts of pistol ammunition makes it easier to make hits on multiple targets.
Click to expand...

Where does it say you have to do CQB in full auto???? Are you telling us that single shots centre of mass from a short barreled 5.56 is less affective then bursts of 9mm in FA???:confused:
 
Last edited:
Bigbill,

Last Time I looked Princess Gate was 1980 -- we learned a hell of a lot since then. As Pat Rogers has stated we learned a 100% more about fighting since 9/11 (he actually goes on in more detail). 22SAS does issue the C8CQB and C8SFW currently.

Why would I care about Small Arms Review? I have no interest in becoming a magazine editor -- maybe when I am way past my prime - can't do the job, and/or cannot teach it anymore, then I may consider doing something like that.

The fact is no credible entity, be it unit, agency, or instructor currently will favour the SMG for CQB, some units are required to use 9mm for certain usages - however it is NOT due to the inability of 5.56mm.

9mm is usefull in suppressed usage sure - however your giving up range and terminal effectiveness for a weapons system with a smaller signature.

I dont care to debate Kokalis's antiqued concepts of what works either other than once again no one with half a brain would really consider what he is doing as training or realistic.

As for feelings -- please spare me -- I mentioned very clearly in the PM that one can disagree as much or as deludedly as one wants to, however name calling and insults to people was not on.

Lastly, while I dont have very good PERSEC, I've got no intention on posting a CQB drill on you tube for the whole world to see. The same reason why I don't go posting powerpoints on units CQB #### on the net.
But for a few hundred a day and a RCMP clearance letter BigRed and I will teach you how to shoot move and communicate in the modern age.
 
Last edited:
Big Bill...since you brought it up, the British SAS have also adopted the SIG SG 552 5.56mm CQB rifle recently. There was a study released last year on the terminal ballistics of the 9mm vs. .223/5.56mm rounds and their penetration through interior/exterior walls including drywall, 2X4, siding, etc... I wish I could remember where I saw it, but it in any event, it basically determined that the 5.56mm was superior in all respects for the purpose of CQB, room clearing, etc... Better terminal ballistics and the rounds didn't over penetrate walls, etc...as did the 9mm. Somebody has been listening since just about every modern counter-terror, special forces team on the planet are leaving those HK MP-5s in the rack and using some variant of the basic M16/M4 for CQB duty. An increasing number of North American SWAT/ERT teams are also making the transition.

SMG's are fun to shoot and relatively cheap to feed, but I think we're seeing the final death rattle of the SMG as an influential combat weapon.
 
Too bad you don't want to run a magazine, Kevin, I read an article by a MCpl that described why the CF should adopt an 18 inch mid length carbine a while back - it was really quite good (well,I learned a lot)
 
i think you guys are totally missing a point.

it does not matter it's SMG or compact carbine. both weapons are important .they are tools. in CQB operation most of black or special op use both weapons.a point man usually equip with MP5SD for reason (try to get to stageing point without let them know we are coming and a hall way guard use M4 or around 50% of team members. most of MOUT operation for close range, operators use WHATEVER they like to use,"well with a common sense":), . for stoping power SMG VS rifle rounds compact carbine. well rifle round has a upper hand no matter what setup it use. but in CQB range,(0m to 15m) tree rounds from MP5 will kick your ass even you are armored up ( also you have 25 more rounds ready to go).moreover, some say M4 is a way to go because for armored bad guys. well, level 3 or 4 body armor (plate) will stop 5.56 at CQB range. of course you will feel the difference when you got hit by 9mm or 5.56mm with level 4.

thnak you :cool:
 
One might think that Kokalis and others had a point in that for instinctive, close quarter combat, where precise aim is either not possible or not practical, short controlled bursts of pistol ammunition makes it easier to make hits on multiple targets.
Click to expand...
As I have been instructed and how I instruct my soliders, controled pairs or doubletaps on repetition are the standard for shooting in close quarters. None of the weapons we use have a burst setting, further more, 2 rounds fired quickly and accurately are far better than a burst. Firing from the hip is just ridiculous. There is no shot accountability whatsoever. Rounds would be all over the place. The idea is to put the target down without any collateral damage. The days of clearing rooms by spraying them with rounds are over. Unless there is positve identification of the bad guy, we don't go in blazing.
Lastly, the Sterling smg was a POS. We used them for room clearing alright, #### it and toss it in the window. When it hit the ground it would fire off the whole magazine, thereby clearing before we entered.
That was then, this is now. Tactics have evolved, too bad others can't.
YMMV,
Hoddie.
 
kwonnypooh said:
it does not matter it's SMG or compact carbine. both weapons are important .they are tools. in CQB operation most of black or special op use both weapons.a point man usually equip with MP5SD for reason (try to get to stageing point without let them know we are coming and a hall way guard use M4 or around 50% of team members. most of MOUT operation for close range, operators use WHATEVER they like to use,"well with a common sense":), . for stoping power SMG VS rifle rounds compact carbine. well rifle round has a upper hand no matter what setup it use. but in CQB range,(0m to 15m) tree rounds from MP5 will kick your ass even you are armored up ( also you have 25 more rounds ready to go).moreover, some say M4 is a way to go because for armored bad guys. well, level 3 or 4 body armor (plate) will stop 5.56 at CQB range. of course you will feel the difference when you got hit by 9mm or 5.56mm with level 4.

thnak you :cool:
Click to expand...


I too held similar view to your, kwonnypooh, but I have now been corrected. SMGs are obsolete and abandoned weapons that no reputable team would use for CQB.

I learned my lesson. But unfortunately, there are also several other ignorant persons who still believe in the SMG. Note the site below for the United States Marine Corp. Those ignorant a**holes list the MP 5N as the current CQB for the Marine Corps Force Reconnaissance Companies and Marine Security Force Battalions. Here is another interesting point. This version of the weapon was built to the United States Navy specifications, for use by the USN SEAL Teams. We know those ignorant fools are far behind the times and obviously have failed to study the most recent pronouncements on the subject by the luminaries who frequent this Internet site.

I heard too that these military units also call their soldiers a bunch of bad names from time to time, during the course of their training. They think that this type of talk toughens soldiers up, so they become disciplined for combat. These people are backward and utterly insensitive.

Seems to me the commandoes on this CGN forum can teach a thing or two to those idiot Marines and SEALs, about guns and about respect. CGN commandoes might also open their own counseling services, like Doctor Phil, and teach these rough tough guys a kinder, gentler way to communicate, as they taught me.

And now I leave this subject matter, educated and reformed, confident that the defense of the Free World is in capable, yet sensitive, hands.


http://192.156.19.102/factfile.nsf/...20324744eaf1aba385256281005b3593?OpenDocument
 
Last edited:
mp5 is easier to silence, that would seem to be the reason the reconnaissance (ie:see but not be seen) teams use it, seals is the same idea, they arent a battle group they are a specialized ops team
 
LOL, why not replace rifles with a 1911? The pistol calibre SMG has its purpose, the MP5 is a controllable and accurate weapon for close engagements against unarmoured targets in an environment that demands strict fire accountability, that's why it's so popular with police departments and boarding parties. But it's severely limited. And if you're quoting the the MP5 article on Wkipedia regarding usage, you have to note that Wikipedia is not an academic or always credible source of info. And it so happens that I wrote that article, and I have no hands-on experience with the weapon at all. Guys like KevinB and Big Red offer valuable insight, listen, don't be so stubborn and learn.
 
Hmmm, a few people have posted some informative posts re their experience as to what actually works and is used in the real world, vs writers who live in the past. For Bigbills info, my old Team/Squad has pretty much all switched over to C8's and C8CQB's for entry work as well as everyday deployment. Without going into a lot of details, some of the reasons have been posted here in abbreviated form. Yes the old MP5's are still around, as well as the HK53's and a few other similar toys. Their kept, as at times they still may have an operational need for them. FWIW, we were trying to get the MP5's replaced with C8's back in the late 90's. Pencil pushers who always talked $$ and cents re budgets delayed their aquisition in numbers until now. If I had to deploy now, I wouldn't feel out of place with an HK MP5 or 53. However, I'd rather have a C8 or C8CQB in my hands.....
 
wow.this may sound worng but i like MP5 and SMGs

dont get me worng, i like MP5 because it is still the most" not so fun to shoot weapon" i ever use( no recoil,small size, good handling and if you put close to five k rounds through it a week , you will get to the point where you feel anyonig because you feel like you are working, not having fun shooting. if you do that with m4 or G3 maybe not (i am small size) (i actually had boner by shooting C6 and 50cal rifle (sorry). anyway if you are actually in business of cutting pie i would like a weapon that i am use to it.but as much as i like MP5 it is not multi function weapon. however,a COMPACT carbine, it will cover almost all mission requirements,( my job use to be a babysitting old and anyonig people)from short gunner,runner,boxer, CAT, or in a pinch counter sniper. i am not saying MP5 is only weapon for CQB, but it is one of good weapon out there for CQB.i also like M4 or compact carbine because i only need to carry one weapon not two or three. but they are so loud in the kill house. fianlly, most of people think a 3 round burst is only way to use MP5 but when i did my pie cutting school, semi auto follow up shots was only way to do business. but it was long time ago :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom