Cracked Barrel on SX2

jethunter said:
That's exactly why I'd want somebody who knows something about guns involved. A decent pressure welder should be able to figure it out but obviously they don't always. We do pressure vessel repair every day and I'm involved in developing weld procedures to prevent and correct how repair process welding affects the existing heat treat and metallurgic properties. It's a lot easier to screw up repair welds than new construction because on new construction the heat treat is done AFTER the new welding is complete.

Heat migration has destroyed a lot of rifle bolts that had the handle modified for a scope, and that was not close to the pressure containing area either and yet it happens regularly. In this instance the material thickness should make it quite easy to prevent serious heat buildup but it wouldn't be hard for somebody who doesn't know what they're doing to screw it up.

I'm sure your cousin knows all this and as long as you trust him then that's great if you ever need a gun repaired. But I'm going to use somebody that I trust and that wouldn't be somebody's cousin that used to be a welder. Sorry. :)

BTW, ISO certification doesn't mean s**t. ISO shops turn out garbage all the time. You can get ISO certification for anything and they can screw up every job they do and still maintain ISO certification as long as they have the right paperwork and record keeping system in place.
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Been 7 years since I retired with many years in engineering and maintenance positions. I am really disappointed to hear the ISO certification has fallen to the level you state. The companies I worked for spent a pile of time and money to become certified especially ISO 9001 and z299.
Oh well I guess times change.
Good news is for the Op since you are qualified to prepare weld procedures so this should be a simple one you can help him with to make sure what ever shop he selects does it correctly.
The barrel material which would be the same as my X2 is AIME 4140 chrome moly steel. take care
 
3macs1 said:
Been 7 years since I retired with many years in engineering and maintenance positions. I am really disappointed to hear the ISO certification has fallen to the level you state. The companies I worked for spent a pile of time and money to become certified especially ISO 9001 and z299.
Oh well I guess times change.
Good news is for the Op since you are qualified to prepare weld procedures so this should be a simple one you can help him with to make sure what ever shop he selects does it correctly.
The barrel material which would be the same as my X2 is AIME 4140 chrome moly steel. take care
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I was a certified ISO auditor for 8 years until i let my certification run out. My company is ISO certified and were required to do a certain amount of internal audits, hence my training.

Let me assure you that a shop could conceivably screw up every piece of work they do and still maintain their ISO certification so long as the failures are documented and handled as per the process they themselves designed. ISO mainly consists of documentation. An ISO auditor does not go and find out how good your work is, they check to see how good your documentation is.
 
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jethunter said:
I was a certified ISO auditor for 8 years until i let my certification run out. My company is ISO certified and were required to do a certain amount of internal audits, hence my training.

Let me assure you that a shop could conceivably screw up every piece of work they do and still maintain their ISO certification so long as the failures are documented and handled as per the process they themselves designed. ISO mainly consists of documentation. An ISO auditor does not go and find out how good your work is, they check to see how good your documentation is.
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And there lies today's biggest problem! We threw away good old "common sense" and replaced it with ridiculous procedures and bogus forms that do nothing but protect the stupid & dangerous and hinder everyone else. The saddest part of all this is that the do-gooders who push this "modern ideology" are free to breed!!! And yes...we are now way off topic! :)
 
jethunter said:
I was a certified ISO auditor for 8 years until i let my certification run out. My company is ISO certified and were required to do a certain amount of internal audits, hence my training.

Let me assure you that a shop could conceivably screw up every piece of work they do and still maintain their ISO certification so long as the failures are documented and handled as per the process they themselves designed. ISO mainly consists of documentation. An ISO auditor does not go and find out how good your work is, they check to see how good your documentation is.
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Cool I am not going to get into my background with ISO, perhaps I worked with companies that took it more serious I don't know. Anyway now you have moved on and prepare welding procedures so I am sure you have one that could be revised and used for a repair on this 4140 barrel to help the Op out.;)
 
Well - If it is 4140, then the question begs - Can the weld and HAZ retain the original degree of heat treatment? Even though its not part of the chamber it is appears to be a relatively highly stressed part - at least it was before it failed.
 
3macs1 said:
Cool I am not going to get into my background with ISO, perhaps I worked with companies that took it more serious I don't know. Anyway now you have moved on and prepare welding procedures so I am sure you have one that could be revised and used for a repair on this 4140 barrel to help the Op out.;)
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There's lots of off the shelf procedures available for 4140 but if you don't know the heat treat specifics you'd have to start from scratch. You need to supply two coupons of the same mat'l, heat treat, and thickness as the barrel. The coupons will be welded and have stress, yeild and hardness testing done both pre and post weld to confirm metal properties were not compromised. It will take some time and cost a few thousand bucks. Let me know if you want me to get a quote for you and i'll find an engineering firm that will jump right on it.:)

But here's the procedure I'd use if i was doing the welding: tig with a heat sink between the welded area and the chamber. Fingers in place downstream of the sink, and when it gets warm enough that your fingers start to feel uncomfortable, stop welding and let it cool down before you resume. You can have that one for free. Because you're such a sweetheart. :p
 
jethunter said:
There's lots of off the shelf procedures available for 4140 but if you don't know the heat treat specifics you'd have to start from scratch. You need to supply two coupons of the same mat'l, heat treat, and thickness as the barrel. The coupons will be welded and have stress, yeild and hardness testing done both pre and post weld to confirm metal properties were not compromised. It will take some time and cost a few thousand bucks. Let me know if you want me to get a quote for you and i'll find an engineering firm that will jump right on it.:)

But here's the procedure I'd use if i was doing the welding: tig with a heat sink between the welded area and the chamber. Fingers in place downstream of the sink, and when it gets warm enough that your fingers start to feel uncomfortable, stop welding and let it cool down before you resume. You can have that one for free. Because you're such a sweetheart. :p
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Many thanks. I am confused however but because I am a sweetie and old I will refrain from further comment. Do have to say I am suprised NO preheat, No post heat and no slow controlled cooling in sand etc was recommended. Normally without on a 4140 that is a recipe for additional cracking for this type of repair is it not. No temp sticks?? or Infrared temp gun ??. Guess it is done differently now. I have always found with TIG, the heating is so localized that when it cools, it will crack if all of the base material hasn't been pre-heated . But I am out of touch now and glad I retired when I did. take care:p
 
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Jaydawg I hope you can get it welded. It sounds like its been "shot" broken and it didn't blow your face off. So it would be an improvement being welded. Nuff said!
 
3macs1 said:
Many thanks. I am confused however but because I am a sweetie and old I will refrain from further comment. Do have to say I am suprised NO preheat, No post heat and no slow controlled cooling in sand etc was recommended. Normally without on a 4140 that is a recipe for additional cracking for this type of repair is it not. No temp sticks?? or Infrared temp gun ??. Guess it is done differently now. I have always found with TIG, the heating is so localized that when it cools, it will crack if all of the base material hasn't been pre-heated . But I am out of touch now and glad I retired when I did. take care:p
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Well, no.

No. In retrospect i probably wasn't clear enough the first time. Let me try again.

FIRST you would need to determine the properties of the metal. You need to find out what the yield and hardness factors are at least, and then you design pre and post heat procedures to preserve those condition. That would be the purpose of the afore mentioned testing with the coupons.

Now, I thought I remembered you saying in a previous conversation that you worked with HP, or maybe I am disremembering? I didn't know they did a lot of welding work.
 
jethunter said:
Well, no.

No. In retrospect i probably wasn't clear enough the first time. Let me try again.

FIRST you would need to determine the properties of the metal. You need to find out what the yield and hardness factors are at least, and then you design pre and post heat procedures to preserve those condition. That would be the purpose of the afore mentioned testing with the coupons.

Now, I thought I remembered you saying in a previous conversation that you worked with HP, or maybe I am disremembering? I didn't know they did a lot of welding work.
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No comment on the coupons other than are you serious for this level of repair?? My experience since you brought it up Yep last 10 years of my career ops manager with HP. 26 years prior eng and maintenance positions.
Been around a bit of welding in 26 years and those that prepared procedures but like I said I'm old and out of touch now take care
 
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VLT79 said:
Jethunter and 3macs1...the barrel extension is actually a seperate piece and it is soldered to the barrel so you may not be dealing with 4140 afterall.
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Could be. I know mine was since when it came back bent from canada post I could not find a replacement in 3 1/2" so took it to a shop to see if they could straighten it. They determined the material was 4140 . The Op's may be different but I cannot see it. They could not get the bend out well enough that I could use the barrel with any accuracy so I ended up buying a new 3" just to use the gun again.
As you can see in the gap on the straight edge they got it dam close under 1/8 considering it started almost 7/16 off. Same time even at 1/8 it barely hit the paper when trying to pattern it at 30 yards so had to be scrapped
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Retire it and buy new. "Properly welded" and "welded" are not the same thing, and you're no judge of which is which. Are your fingers, eyes, and life worth more than a new gun? I know mine are.
 
3macs1 said:
No comment on the coupons other than are you serious for this level of repair?? My experience since you brought it up Yep last 10 years of my career ops manager with HP. 26 years prior eng and maintenance positions.
Been around a bit of welding in 26 years and those that prepared procedures but like I said I'm old and out of touch now take care
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LOL, ou may be old and out of touch but you don't like to give up the bone very easily.

I thought a man with your experience would have understand I was rattling your cage about the coupons. Think about it.

You couldn't supply coupons with the same heat treat as the barrels if you don't know the heat treat that was used on the barrels. On the other hand if you did know the heat treat used on the barrels to reproduce in the coupons, you wouldn't need to have coupon testing done because obviously you'd already know. ;)
 
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jethunter said:
LOL, ou may be old and out of touch but you don't like to give up the bone very easily.

I thought a man with your experience would have understand I was rattling your cage about the coupons. Think about it.

You couldn't supply coupons with the same heat treat as the barrels if you don't know the heat treat that was used on the barrels. On the other hand if you did know the heat treat used on the barrels to reproduce in the coupons, you wouldn't need to have coupon testing done because obviously you'd already know. ;)
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I did think about it that is why I would not comment. Anyway enough is enough I would have had this barrel welded and shooting by now. Get it to a good shop, with a qualified welder and see what they can do maybe they would scrap it who knows until they try.
As far as giving up the bone never my friend and thank god I am like that. Probally why I am still here almost 7 years longer than the 12 months they gave me with my initial cancer DX. Keep your bare hands out the parts washers and hydro carbons as I have learned the hard way
Take care:)
 
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