cross bows

Adrian J Hare said:
Everyone has their opinion, but this is going a little over board really.

What I don't agree in is the Comment made on Practice. Everyone has it bent in minds that Compounds need a lot of Practice. Bows these days Do Not need the practice they used to 25 years ago yes, but updated compounds do not. The way they are built, setup and shooting, one can put a little time into a target practice section and be as deadly as they we're the last year. Anchor points don't change, train yourself to use the same one all the time.

What bothers me is Crossbows are taking over and people that don't care if they can hit a dime or not on a target, sit in trees and hits game and loses it and the Non hunter walks onto it or they see a duck walking around in Central Park in Toronto with an arrow stuck in it, not from a crossbow but a compound . That gives all Bow hunters a bad name, Crossbow hunters are archers but practice shot placement and eithical shots and it will put us all in the same catagory...
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One of the reasons I went to a crossbow, in fact the only reason, was that I could not get the time to practice with a compound. I had a compound, I even hunted with it, however, there were only a couple of years that I felt confident enough to do so. Yes, there are guys that can shoot as well with a compound as I can with a crossbow, but I'm guessing it's not the average guy.
With a crossbow, I hit each bull on the target bag consistently, and have since I first sighted it in.
With my compound, every season, it was a struggle at first just to keep hitting the damned bag, never mind the targets painted on it.
 
I have an older 200lb. Excalibur Exomag. Verrrrry accurate. These Excaliburs are a little wider than a compound crossbow, but string changes can be done in the field and the bows are lighter and better balanced in the hand.
 
I guess you all missed my point. A typical Gunnuzt thread, lets beet up the one that has common sence.

I've shot a compound longer then most, and also see how the new lines work and shoot, as said above Yes some practice is needed but not to the point that you can not recover. If your that bad get out of archery, because your drive for the sport has been lost....
 
Let's be honest, it takes little to no practice to shoot a good crossbow and maybe only a little more to shoot a good bow. If your equipment sucks, you can spend hours trying to tune and "practice"... and you will still suck!

Range estimating is another thing, but it to can be done with a good rangefinder. Personally, I usually set up ribbons or markers at certain distances from my stand so that I know exactly how far a deer is when I am ready to shoot it. The rest is just handling your nerves when Mr. Big shows up.
 
Whether you shoot gun, xbow or compound you should do some form of practice. Going to the range a week before the season to some may be practicing. Some people require a lot more shooting practice than others and just like our bad drivers on the road they don't or can't do any better because they are giving the best they can. Each hunter should know how much practise if any is needed. As for the original question all cossbows will do a good job, we loaded xbows with our hands long before cocking aids but try changing a string on a compound xbow at the moose camp or while in the stand? Buy what makes you happy and what you can afford. Like I said once before you can not teach someone common sense you have to be born with it.
 
Adrian J Hare said:
I guess you all missed my point. A typical Gunnuzt thread, lets beet up the one that has common sence.

I've shot a compound longer then most, and also see how the new lines work and shoot, as said above Yes some practice is needed but not to the point that you can not recover. If your that bad get out of archery, because your drive for the sport has been lost....
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Well lets see, I started shooting bows in the 60's. In those days, I shot every week and I was very good.
Now, retired, and living in town, I just don't get the practice. The edge is gone, and most of the skill. Yes, I can, when I'm worked up, with lots of practice still shoot a bow quite well. Even instinctive, but, I rarely have that time now.
The crossbow is a hunters alternative, when he doesn't have the time to be a purist. Better to take a crossbow and hit your game fairly, than take a long bow, and miss the mark.
Yes, if I had the time, I'd take a compound, or even a traditional stick bow to the woods. There is a special feeling to that type of hunting.
I don't have that time. Maybe in a few years, when things wind down a bit.

So, getting back to Fogducker:

The compound requires you to develop the skill, the crossbow does not.
If you have the time, and a place to practice, the compound is nice.
Living in T.O. in an apartment, I wonder where you'll do it.
 
x-bows are great, have been hunting with one for about 5 years now, get game with it every year. the only bad thing i find is walkin thick bush when it cocked, you can lose your arrow if your not paying attention, happen to me last year ended up dry-firing my bow at a doe, it happen too fast couldnt notice the arrow wasnt there, had to change the string and one pulley! but its a great weapon!
 
It would be difficult to lose the arrow that is actually on the crossbow on the Excalibur models. Losing them from the quiver however can happen if you are walking with the crossbow slung on your back and the arrows rub your coat. I've not lost one yet, but I have had them hanging loose.
The crossbow quiver is nearly identical to most of the bow mounted units on compound bows.
I take mine off when on stand. Less weight, more visibility.
 
is there any ranges that just cater to bows around?
jessus i have a lot to learn on this new method of hunting i want:eek:..
thanks a bunch again all ..for all the tips and info..
maybe in the spring i,ll invite yous all and open our deer camp and have a weekend for some archery fun..might as well make it a weekend and do some camping and bull sh!tting to:D..
 
baci2004;1899041 However I think it's worth mentioning that a compound bow doesn't require a drawing device to maintain accuracy because it's centers automatically whereas a conventional limbed crossbow does not. For those who don't know said:
While it is true that compound crossbows do not require a cocking aid, they are not self centering. I shoot an old Barnett Demon and I have marked the string as others have mentioned to make sure it is centered. It is not unusual for it to be a touch off on cocking, but pulling back on the string and shifting it to the side is all that is needed to get it centered. This is easily done by hand due to the "let-off" of the compound cams. Compound X-bows also tend to be much more compact (narrower limb to limb) than recurves. Compounds are also much easier to "let down" at the end of the day. I can hold back the string on mine with one hand and my foot in the cocking stirup, pull the trigger and let it down. I have been told you can grab the string with both hands on an excal, with a foot in the stirup, hit the trigger with your thumb and let them down as well, so not much of a disadvantage.

As for the "you can't change the string on a compound x-bow in the field..." The older Barnetts like mine are set up to change strings faster and easier than the Excals ( current Barnetts are not), but unless you are careless and cut the string while loading a bolt in the field, you should not be going hunting with a worn string to begin with. If I was going to replace my old Demon, I would likely go with another Barnett compound. I bought mine used well after it was out of production, but they still provided excellent product support, including supplying a scope mount, no charge (not even shipping).

While the Excal's are no doubt an excellent product, in my oppinion a compound crossbows have too many advantages to ignore.
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I bought and Excaliber Exocet here on CGN with Everthing loaded to the nuts Broadheads carbon bolts scope.
Best deal i ever got on anything here!
The things great i love it.
One thing there hard on the back to ####!
mine came with the cocking aid and i need it with my ####ed up back!!!
 
If we can use the word ,'average' the average crossbow bolt is 20% shorter than and 20% lighter than the 'average' arrow used in a compound bow and then there is the short stroke . To develope the same flight speed as a 60 lb. compound bow will require a crossbow of 175 lbs. Many folks view a crossbow as more precise than a compound bow because the elbows can be rested on a range table . The trajectory isn't much different so if your range estimation is off by a few yards you wound the deer or miss it . Given close to the same velocity for both at a given range the arrow from the compound bow will penetrate deeper because it is heavier. I have nothing against crossbows but i wonder about some of the archers who claim precise expertise with little practise . Energy equals penetration and energy is the result of projectile weight and speed . The 'average' crossbow is at a disadvantage to the 'average' compund bow on energy and penetration because of the arrow weight . If an exact trajectory isn't plotted , range estimation is of no value and it seems that more compound bow shooters spend the time putting practise in to know the trajectories and ranges . I know of several crossbow shooters that sight in for 30 yards and then say , good enough .
 
atr said:
If we can use the word ,'average' the average crossbow bolt is 20% shorter than and 20% lighter than the 'average' arrow used in a compound bow and then there is the short stroke . To develope the same flight speed as a 60 lb. compound bow will require a crossbow of 175 lbs. Many folks view a crossbow as more precise than a compound bow because the elbows can be rested on a range table . The trajectory isn't much different so if your range estimation is off by a few yards you wound the deer or miss it . Given close to the same velocity for both at a given range the arrow from the compound bow will penetrate deeper because it is heavier. I have nothing against crossbows but i wonder about some of the archers who claim precise expertise with little practise . Energy equals penetration and energy is the result of projectile weight and speed . The 'average' crossbow is at a disadvantage to the 'average' compund bow on energy and penetration because of the arrow weight . If an exact trajectory isn't plotted , range estimation is of no value and it seems that more compound bow shooters spend the time putting practise in to know the trajectories and ranges . I know of several crossbow shooters that sight in for 30 yards and then say , good enough .
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You sound like a dedicated archer that has never used a crossbow.
I didn't believe they could be so accurate with so little practice either, but they just are.
What you said about penetration is likely true, however, as I've shot through a 265 lb whitetail with a crossbow, using light carbon arrows and standard broadheads, I don't see a big advantage there, unless you are willing to take iffy shots.
You shouldn't be shooting more than 40 with a crossbow anyway, as the trajectory falls off rapidly after that. so Sighting in at thirty isn't a bad thing.
Most long bow guys won't shoot more than 40 either, although it is possible to make kills at considerably greater distance with a long bow, assuming you can make the shot. If it was a known distance, I could make it to 60, when I was practiced up, but I never used it on game.
 
Make sure you buy one of the new quivers that holds the arrow in two places, these are a lot better than the old single holders. I have also built a 3 arrow quiver that holds the arrows along the side of the stock to prevent knocking them loose when dogging.
My compound arrows are 33" 2317 or 2514 with a 145 grain head and my xbow arrows are 20" with a 100 grain head. I found with the moose and deer I shot over the last 34 years that lighter faster arrows make up for the loss of arrow weight and will give you better penetration then heavy arrows.
 
Started this yesterday and got caught in the clean up here :rolleyes:

John, I caught the same thought as you on that post ;)

Guys It seems everyone wants to take shots at my thread and now because you don't seem to read between the lines, I'll spell it out to you as I ment it.

I by no means said Not to practice at all - I said a compound does not require the practe they used to back years ago.

I have by no means said anything against a crossbow - They are Bows and require the same amount of the same practice as a Compound. As an archer for 30 some years I've owned a crossbow( old barnett wild cat) when they came out, so you know how long back that was but I do not classify bows seperate they are bows, I support all archers no matter what they shoot.

Crossbows are easier to use, with less thought put into the time of a shot but if the proper Practice is not done, you will have no idea where the arrow is going to hit at a certain range So practicing to understand the proper range and trajectory of the bow you own is only the eithical thing to do for the game your hunting.

Compounds made in the mid 2000's have had such a chemistry change in the way they work and shoot that they have advanced to the point that they are now at the level of a good crossbow. With the proper arrow combo and the technology in the arrow craftmanship these days, Once an archer has a compound setup and shooting thier bow to learn and understand the bow he or she owns, if they put it down for a time period the bow don't change. If the shooters form and anchor point is the same or even very close the bow is still going to hit in the same spot. The most important thing to practice is the anchor point and form every time you pick the bow back up. From this point practice only concerns shot placement and understanding your yardage that has not got anything to do with the way your bow shoots. Compounds these days have got so fast that a archer only needs one pin for the 20 and 30 yard shot. The change in arrow impact is usually the difference in 2 inches above and below the aim point. Compensation in ethical shots are near gone, the guess work has been worked out in the way these new compounds shoot.

Practice works in a number of ways, but shooting a bow whether its Crossbow or Compound bow never changes when it comes to having the bow sighted in.

Learning and practicing your yardage or range that you will be shooting is the only next step, one has to do and most of the guess work as been taken out of that with the technology of range finders. A good quality rangefinder can work right out to rifle shooting ranges. If one wants to practice range finding without the aid of a device like a rangefinder, then practice stepping out your yardage. A average man making one stride is = to one yard. If you practice this on a normal bases you will become good at learning to judge distance for bow hunting or even turkey hunting where the range is near the same for both sports.

With all that said the most common mistake that happens to the highest percentage of archers Crossbow or Compound is excitement and the patients to wait for the proper eithical shot.

I hope now you all understand what I had ment by You don't need the practice with Compounds like you used too...
 
My 2 cents: I do not believe that the crossbow is any less effective than a long bow, but for some reason longbow hunters seem to be more involved and knowledgable about their sport.

There has been an archery season (draw) on the Sunshine Coast for about 5 years or so now. In BC a crossbow is seen as archery tackle. The number of elk wounded and lost by crossbow hunters has been ridiculous, the number of elk lost from bowhunters has been slim. "Those elk are tough" seems to be the best excuse any of them have come up with. I have hear these same individuals say "I can hit the bullseye at 70 yards", "any elk that steps out in front of me at 50 yards is dead", and my favourite, "How come it didn't fall down when I shot it? It ran off the road. I don't like that at all".

Any archer who has made the mistake of shooting at an animal that was aware of their presence knows how that goes bad really quick. I speak from experience here; the first deer I ever took with a bow was at 23 yards, staring at me. At the shot he jumped forward a bit, and by the time my arrow got there it hit him in the paunch instead of the lungs. I have also watched a freind with a very fast bow take a shot at a black bear that was quite aware of his presence (he had already missed him once). The bear was at 35 yards, and managed to move completely out of the way before the arrow got there. I have many other examples as well.

Lesson 1: Do not shoot at animals that are aware of your presence if they are farther than 20 yards (15 yards for whitetails).

Many people do not understand how a broadhead kills, and will often hunt with bblades that they have previously shot into foam targets and hay bails. A broadhead kills by making a "surgically clean" cut through the animals tissue. Dull broadheads will not cut cleanly, but will tear through tissue causing rapid clotting and coagulation of blood, and a much greater chance that an animal will run farther than you can, or are willing to track it.

I have hit deer through both lungs that have died in 6 seconds (yes, I counted), one lung in 14 seconds, and liver in about 15 minutes. I have heard reports of some animals taking an arrow through the chest and going kilometres before dropping. There can be only one reason for this: dull broadheads! A friend of mine took an elk on the coast this year with a sharp broadhead, he said it took 15 seconds to die, but when I pushed him on the timeline, he admitted that everything seemed to slow down, and likely wasn't that long. I have seen many animals get taken with a bow, and a double lung hit on an unaware deer, elk, moose, or black bear with a SHARP broadhead should take 6 seconds to kill, period.

Lesson 2: Sharp broadheads are a must. People who hunt with dull broadheads should have their licence taken away.

Lesson 3: Your animal WILL run away, if it doesn't, something is wrong. Be prepared mentally and physically for this fact, ie. always have a flashlight and marking tape).

Okay, so maybe I had more than a couple of cents, but I once had to threaten a good friend of mine that I would beat him with his compound bow if I caught him out hunting with dull broadheads, ever again!

Enjoy the hunting,

Ian
 
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