Crown Land, Land Locked by Private Land

[tjsudbury]

I know that stream or river beds are crown land. I use to have to use them while electrofishing for the MNR. Even though it was legal for us to be there we still let the surrounding land owners know about it. They would often just let us walk through their property.

That's true of navigable waterways, but not true for non-navigable waterways.

I spent over twenty years as a senior technologist in a land surveyor's office, and dealt with situations like this many times. The best advice I can give anybody with problems like this is that before you do anything else, you need to look at the title documents at the land registry office. Every situation is unique, the rules change province to province, and from one area to another within a province. Have a talk with a local Land Surveyor, they will have knowledge of the area, and can often provide you with the answer you need for little or no cost. For sure they are a lot cheaper than going to a lawyer, and have a much better knowledge of this sort of thing.

 

[CV32]

Have a talk with a local Land Surveyor, they will have knowledge of the area, and can often provide you with the answer you need for little or no cost. For sure they are a lot cheaper than going to a lawyer, and have a much better knowledge of this sort of thing.

Although I have respect and appreciation for the work of land surveyors, and frequently call upon their expertise, I can't agree with your statement. A surveyor can probably tell you a lot about the boundaries, particularly if they've surveyed the property themselves or are willing to consult with the surveyor who did the work. Most are private businessmen too, so they naturally expect to be paid for their time. None of this remotely compares, however, with the information found in the public land titles registry or the legal interpretation of the relevant deeds and property descriptions held at that registry.

Most importantly, wherever the boundaries lie, none change the fact that Courts are now generally loath to permit a denial of access to land locked property. It just runs contrary to public policy.

 

[tjsudbury]

Although I have respect and appreciation for the work of land surveyors, and frequently call upon their expertise, I can't agree with your statement. A surveyor can probably tell you a lot about the boundaries, particularly if they've surveyed the property themselves or are willing to consult with the surveyor who did the work. Most are private businessmen too, so they naturally expect to be paid for their time. None of this remotely compares, however, with the information found in the public land titles registry or the legal interpretation of the relevant deeds and property descriptions held at that registry.

Most importantly, wherever the boundaries lie, none change the fact that Courts are now generally loath to permit a denial of access to land locked property. It just runs contrary to public policy.

Surveyors, like lawyers, generally do not charge for their initial consultation. I have seen many people leave the office I worked in with the answers they were looking for, at no cost.

You would be supprised at how often things like this come up in a survey office. They deal with this sort of thing far more often than lawyers do, and many have at least as good a knowledge of the relevant statutes and case law as the local lawyers. of course, you need to pick a surveyor that has a good reputation, and has practiced in the area for a long time.

As to your last point, I've seen no evidence of this. Case law and precident will prevail.

If you find yourself landlocked, you have nobody but yourself to blame for not making sure of access prior to purchasing the property (although you may be able to blame your lawyer for not alerting you to the fact)

However, if you become landlocked after you purchase the property, that's a whole different ball of wax, and there may be remedies, depending on the circumstances.

 

[CV32]

Surveyors, like lawyers, generally do not charge for their initial consultation. I have seen many people leave the office I worked in with the answers they were looking for, at no cost.

Thats true, I often don't charge folks for an initial consultation, but you didn't hear me say that. That said, investigating the boundaries to a particular piece of property often takes more than an initial chat. And its difficult to speak in generalities about this particular topic.

You would be supprised at how often things like this come up in a survey office. They deal with this sort of thing far more often than lawyers do, and many have at least as good a knowledge of the relevant statutes and case law as the local lawyers. of course, you need to pick a surveyor that has a good reputation, and has practiced in the area for a long time.

Like I said, while surveyors are knowledgeable in their particular area of expertise, it hasn't been my experience that they have specialised skills about dealing with property rights and rights of access.

As to your last point, I've seen no evidence of this. Case law and precident will prevail.

Yup, case law and precedent will prevail. And I invite anyone to look up the prevailing case law themselves if they are interested.

 

[tjsudbury]

Thats true, I often don't charge folks for an initial consultation, but you didn't hear me say that. That said, investigating the boundaries to a particular piece of property often takes more than an initial chat. And its difficult to speak in generalities about this particular topic.

Very true. Sometimes a simple yes or no type answer is posible, but not very often, for anything else, a proprer title search, not only of the subject property, but of all adjacent parcels, is an absolute must, before you even start.

 

[tjsudbury]

Like I said, while surveyors are knowledgeable in their particular area of expertise, it hasn't been my experience that they have specialised skills about dealing with property rights and rights of access.

maybe so on the Rock, but I think the Land Surveyors in Ontario would stongly disagree with this statement

 

[CV32]

maybe so on the Rock, but I think the Land Surveyors in Ontario would stongly disagree with this statement

There's probably more truth in that statement than you anticipated, given the land titles systems are entirely different. Its not uncommon to have to search titles back into the 19th century here.

 

[treebutcher]

...

 

[tjsudbury]

There's probably more truth in that statement than you anticipated, given the land titles systems are entirely different. Its not uncommon to have to search titles back into the 19th century here.

I especially like the descriptions that are 150 years old and go "commencing at the big oak tree in John Smiths field, and thense....."

 

[CV32]

I especially like the descriptions that are 150 years old and go "commencing at the big oak tree in John Smiths field, and thense....."

Yup, always worth a chuckle.

 

[blasted_saber]

Thats true, I often don't charge folks for an initial consultation, but you didn't hear me say that. That said, investigating the boundaries to a particular piece of property often takes more than an initial chat. And its difficult to speak in generalities about this particular topic.



Like I said, while surveyors are knowledgeable in their particular area of expertise, it hasn't been my experience that they have specialised skills about dealing with property rights and rights of access.



Yup, case law and precedent will prevail. And I invite anyone to look up the prevailing case law themselves if they are interested.

In Ontario they do. I worked with one for 3 years

 

[CV32]

In Ontario they do. I worked with one for 3 years

Yeah, I think we've established that it probably has something to do with your very different (and simpler, more modern) land title system.

 

[treebutcher]

...

 

[StoneHorse]

Sorry you feel that way Doug but this statement above is absolutly true.

we do not have any property rights in Canada