CSAAA Bill C71 Discussion Q+A

Firearms owners support conservative politicians, mostly because there is no libertarian or FECK YOU option on the ballet. Guaranteed, online firearms sales just died, initially very few will want to give a scan of their pal and get identity scammed. By the time people loosen up and start buying again, many retailers will have folded, or a major breach will see thousands scammed.
 
vince514 said:
always new laws and rules for law abiding gun owners.
Less punishment for the criminals. DO they even think about them sometimes?
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How soon before it'll be more advantageous to be a criminal, than a law abiding citizen ? I am asking for a friend !!
 
Suther said:
Are you a business? If not, you don't have any record keeping requirements. You don't even have to keep records of your ref #s.
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Like mentioned earlier, online dealer sales will crash. EE sales will flourish, until the greasy POS figures out how to stop this as well.

A Liberal will not rest until all civilians are disarmed!........:(

Maybe gun dealers across Canada need to start a Class Action law suit!

Oh ya, I forgot about corrupt Liberal judges sitting on the bench, never mind!.......:(

What a pathetic Communist Country we have.

No balls, no guns.

No guns, no rights.

No rights, into the concentration camps you go.

When will Canadians wake the &@@& up?
 
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I'm pretty sure they have the part about lending wrong.
If I lend someone my gun, it is still my gun..no transfer needed.

And should the other guy lend me his money at the same time, that is of course just a coincidence..
 
Q: Are individuals really required to maintain this 20-year record as well as businesses?

A: Yes.
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This seems inconsistent with the amendments in bill c71 and I quote below: (note there is no requirement for individuals to keep records for 20 years) you can read the full list of amendments here https://parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-71/royal-assent

5 Sections 23 and 23.#1 of the Act are replaced by the following:
Authorization to transfer non-restricted firearms
23 (1) A person may transfer one or more non-restricted firearms if, at the time of the transfer,

(a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess a non-restricted firearm;

(b) the Registrar has, at the transferor’s request, issued a reference number for the transfer and provided it to the transferor; and

(c) the reference number is still valid.

Information — transferee’s licence
(2) The transferee shall provide to the transferor the prescribed information that relates to the transferee’s licence, for the purpose of enabling the transferor to request that the Registrar issue a reference number for the transfer.

Reference number
(3) The Registrar shall issue a reference number if he or she is satisfied that the transferee holds and is still eligible to hold a licence authorizing them to acquire and possess a non-restricted firearm.

Period of validity
(4) A reference number is valid for the prescribed period.

Registrar not satisfied
(5) If the Registrar is not satisfied as set out in subsection (3), he or she may so inform the transferor.

2015, c. 27, s. 11

6 Subsection 54(1) of the Act is replaced by the following:
Applications
54 (1) A licence, registration certificate or authorization, other than an authorization referred to in subsection 19(2.#1), (2.#2) or (2.#3), may be issued only on application made in the prescribed form — which form may be in writing or electronic — or in the prescribed manner. The application must set out the prescribed information and be accompanied by payment of the prescribed fees.

7 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 58:
Conditions — licence issued to business
58.#1 (1) A chief firearms officer who issues a licence to a business must attach the following conditions to the licence:

(a) the business must record and, for the prescribed period, keep the prescribed information that relates to the business’ possession and disposal of non-restricted firearms;

(b) the business must record and — for a period of 20 years from the day on which the business transfers a non-restricted firearm, or for a longer period that may be prescribed — keep the following information in respect of the transfer:

(i) the reference number issued by the Registrar,

(ii) the day on which the reference number was issued,

(iii) the transferee’s licence number, and

(iv) the firearm’s make, model and type and, if any, its serial number; and

(c) the business must, unless otherwise directed by a chief firearms officer, transmit any records containing the information referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) to a prescribed official if it is determined that the business will cease to be a business.
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I think the information presented here regarding individuals record keeping is incorrect

It’s not consistent with the information on RCMP website, or the information posted by ED Burlew, copied below:



I lam a member of the CSAAA and have also studied the regulation and Bill c-71. This is what I can confirm as the way the system will work as of midnight May 18th. Of course the CFO and CFC may "clarify"some of this but this is what the CFC and CFC have said to the CSAAA and the regualtions says so far as of May 13th.

As of May 18th, 2022 you MUST have a reference number Before a gun is transferred. That is any transfer between licensed persons. If you do not is its criminal offense of unauthorized transfer or trafficking in firearms. This must be done before the transfer , NOT after the transfer.

To obtain a reference number you contact the CFC by telephone or if a business there will be a portal for this and so too there will be a portal for individuals with PALs. These will be started on Tuesday or Wednesday.

The purpose is to give validation that the transferor and transferee have valid PALs. A reference number is valid for 90 days. During that 90 days the transferor and transferee can transfer one or multiple N/R firearms.

A transferee can have multiple reference numbers if the transferors are different. Multiple among the same transferor and transferee are not needed.

The Key date is the day of transfer of physical possession. That is the day the transfree picks up the gun from the transferor or when the transferor gives possession to the shipper.

Dropping off a gun for storage, repair or modification is Not a transfer. The business must keep a record of all N/R guns in it's possession, that is a separate provision than making a transfer.

When buying from a business the business is to give the buyer the record of the sale which has the transferor , transfree , date, make, model , serial number and reference number..

Record keeping:

The transferring business must keep the record for twenty years . The transferee has no obligation to keep the record of the transfer.

At the end of twenty years from the transfer the record can be destroyed by the business .

Individuals who are not licensed firearms businesses do not have to keep the records of the transfer. As an individual transferor you have no obligation to keep a record.

If a reference number is issued there is no obligation on the proposed transferor or proposed transferee to report of there was a gun transfered. This means that a person selling a gun may apply for a reference number before you look at the gun and then if you decide to buy it the reference is ready and you can buy it on the spot. If you look and say no go. then the reference number will just be there and expire in 90 days in respect of the proposed seller. If you go the gun store to look at one N/R and there is a reference number issued you can buy any N/R in the store during that 90 days.

If you are buying by mail order or any other way where you are not face to face in person with the transferor you must send a copy of both sides of your PAL and another government issued photo ID ( both sides again for that ID too). The transferor must make a note of having received and viewed those two pieces of ID. The second photo ID can be issued by Federal, provincial or municipal government. There is no obligation to save the sent images. If you are a business you must make a note that both pieces of ID were viewed and were correctly identified. That note must be kept as part of the record for twenty years.

There is no obligation and it is discouraged for any transferor or transferee to inform the CFC or CFO of the details of the firearm. The CFC/CFO will only be concerned with the validity of the licenses.

If you buy one gun during the 90 days then you can rely on that reference number for a second purchase from that same licensed business during the 90 day period.

If the sale is by an estate remember the deceased's PAL became invalid on death and a telephone call to the CFC is needed to sort this out.

If you are unlicensed and transferring a N/R firearm the portal is not available. There is concern that notifying the CFC/CFO of a transfer by an unlicensed individual may be reporting the crime of unauthorized possession. This needs to be sorted out yet. If you are an unlicensed executor then there are provisions. If the deceased has a will that applies to empower the executor, If no will then the next of kin need to apply for a grant of probate without a will.

In this is use the word transferor/seller and transferee/buyer interchangeably.
 
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CZ Shooter said:
I'm pretty sure they have the part about lending wrong.
If I lend someone my gun, it is still my gun..no transfer needed.

And should the other guy lend me his money at the same time, that is of course just a coincidence..
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Please read...of course you can do as you please....

2.1.3 Transfer of Non‑restricted Firearms (Clauses 5, 9 and 10)
Under the Firearms Act, the term “transfer” means to sell, barter or give (section 21). Bill C‑71 replaces sections 23 and 23.1 of the Firearms Act with new sections 23(1) to 23(5) and raises the threshold of responsibility for a person wishing to transfer non‑restricted firearms who must now verify the validity of the license of an individual prior to the transfer.
 
Bigbubba said:
Please read...of course you can do as you please....

2.1.3 Transfer of Non‑restricted Firearms (Clauses 5, 9 and 10)
Under the Firearms Act, the term “transfer” means to sell, barter or give (section 21). Bill C‑71 replaces sections 23 and 23.1 of the Firearms Act with new sections 23(1) to 23(5) and raises the threshold of responsibility for a person wishing to transfer non‑restricted firearms who must now verify the validity of the license of an individual prior to the transfer.
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Barter:
"Immediate & direct reciprocal exchange of goods or services without use of money"

There is a strong possibility, that my english has some significant holes in it, as it is not my first language.
However there would be no "reciprocal exchange" taking place, as the other party would of course be lending me the money not in return for anything, but rather out of the goodness of their heart in a separate and unrealated manner.

My understanding of lending is that you temporarily release a physical object which you own into someones care with the expectation of eventual return (the return could be time specific or not)

I don't think it falls under "giving", "selling" or "barter".
Not trying to be a ###### but em I wrong?
 
vince514 said:
always new laws and rules for law abiding gun owners.

Less punishment for the criminals. DO they even think about them sometimes?
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The only thing our liberal overlords care about is votes, trying to appease the scared masses in the big cities by enacting ridiculous firearms laws/bans that make it appear that they are doing something to combat gang violence and criminal activity, thereby winning the favor of said scared masses and getting voted back in and keeping their kushy paychecks coming. That, and having the inane attitude that disarming the population will somehow keep everyone safer.
 
CZ Shooter said:
Barter:
"Immediate & direct reciprocal exchange of goods or services without use of money"

There is a strong possibility, that my english has some significant holes in it, as it is not my first language.
However there would be no "reciprocal exchange" taking place, as the other party would of course be lending me the money not in return for anything, but rather out of the goodness of their heart in a separate and unrealated manner.

My understanding of lending is that you temporarily release a physical object which you own into someones care with the expectation of eventual return (the return could be time specific or not)

I don't think it falls under "giving", "selling" or "barter".
Not trying to be a ###### but em I wrong?
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Logically you are not wrong, but how logic applies in firearms law is another thread.
Note that to even lend a restricted to another RPAL holder, I must go through transfer hoops.
I can see this being extended to NRs - so we are getting what we asked for, namely a simplified system.
A gun is a gun is a gun. More paperwork for everyone. See? Careful what you ask for, you may get it.
 
CZ Shooter said:
Barter:
"Immediate & direct reciprocal exchange of goods or services without use of money"

There is a strong possibility, that my english has some significant holes in it, as it is not my first language.
However there would be no "reciprocal exchange" taking place, as the other party would of course be lending me the money not in return for anything, but rather out of the goodness of their heart in a separate and unrealated manner.

My understanding of lending is that you temporarily release a physical object which you own into someones care with the expectation of eventual return (the return could be time specific or not)

I don't think it falls under "giving", "selling" or "barter".
Not trying to be a ###### but em I wrong?
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you know what, I don't know. You could be ok, maybe not.

Some LEO then Prosecutor then Judge could decide it was not ok. They could decide it is ok.

Time will tell. I won't be telling anyone anything though going forward.
 
CZ Shooter said:
Barter:
"Immediate & direct reciprocal exchange of goods or services without use of money"

There is a strong possibility, that my english has some significant holes in it, as it is not my first language.
However there would be no "reciprocal exchange" taking place, as the other party would of course be lending me the money not in return for anything, but rather out of the goodness of their heart in a separate and unrealated manner.

My understanding of lending is that you temporarily release a physical object which you own into someones care with the expectation of eventual return (the return could be time specific or not)

I don't think it falls under "giving", "selling" or "barter".
Not trying to be a ###### but em I wrong?
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Considering Lending is covered under a different section of the firearms act (section 33), I can't see why changes to NR transfers, which is Section 23, would have any impacts.

However, if there is also a lend of money at the same time it might be hard to convince a cop or judge that you were lending and not selling the gun... and all it takes is charges for your whole life to get flipped upside down, even if those charges get dropped after you spend a pile of time and money on dealing with the mess you've created for yourself.

Lending a gun is fine. Using "lending" as a work around to transfer laws runs the risk of being charged with an illegal transfer (or whatever the specific offense would be.)
 
Suther said:
Considering Lending is covered under a different section of the firearms act (section 33), I can't see why changes to NR transfers, which is Section 23, would have any impacts.

However, if there is also a lend of money at the same time it might be hard to convince a judge that you were lending and not selling the gun.
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that's where it will get tricky. Proving it was a "lend" not a sale or barter....
 
Suther said:
However, if there is also a lend of money at the same time it might be hard to convince a cop or judge that you were lending and not selling the gun... and all it takes is charges for your whole life to get flipped upside down, even if those charges get dropped after you spend a pile of time and money on dealing with the mess you've created for yourself.
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I might lend my rifle and get "a safety deposit", to be given back upon return of the rifle, "whenever/if it happens"
 
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