Custom Actions

I was thinking that the barrel would be in a block like rail gun and different actions would be spun on. If all the headspacing was set up right, changing actions would be as easy as changing a light bulb. That would reduce issues with changing weather - tunnel would be the best of course.

Nothing is mounted on the action except the trigger. It would freefloat. Could even add weight to the actions so they all weighed the same though I doubt it would matter.

The only variable would be the action and its influence on the ignition process (don't have to worry about bedding either). pressures would be set to the Standard Rem action which is still magnum pressure capable.

I am sure there would be a lower pressure node in a ppc or you could use a 6BR which definitely can run at lower pressures well.

Really surprised such a test was never done....or at least advertised.

Jerry
 
I like your thinking Jerry!

Is the 6Br as accurate as the 6ppc or more to the point would using the 6BR compromise the results (sorry I'm not a benchrester)?

How about 100 recorded shots from one action switch actions and repeat until 200 shots are recorded from each action?
 
mysticplayer said:
I was thinking that the barrel would be in a block like rail gun and different actions would be spun on. If all the headspacing was set up right, changing actions would be as easy as changing a light bulb. That would reduce issues with changing weather - tunnel would be the best of course.

Nothing is mounted on the action except the trigger. It would freefloat. Could even add weight to the actions so they all weighed the same though I doubt it would matter.

The only variable would be the action and its influence on the ignition process (don't have to worry about bedding either). pressures would be set to the Standard Rem action which is still magnum pressure capable.

I am sure there would be a lower pressure node in a ppc or you could use a 6BR which definitely can run at lower pressures well.

Really surprised such a test was never done....or at least advertised.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I think under this scenario I think all you would be doing is testing the barrel, not the barrel and action together.

One of the great things about the ppc and the br in custom actions is the ability to run higher pressures than normal reloaders experience. I know you won't agree with this, but higher pressure does equal better accuracy. I don't know why, but we would all be shooting blackpowder if it didn't. Future thread.....
 
I'm almost afraid to post this for fear of stirring up the hornets nest but WTF!

Located two actions of interest available in Canada for fairly reasonable prices considering what they are. The big question will be which will be better for 1000BR work. Stiller Viper or Barnard P ? I would imagine both will work just fine but wish to hear from the accuracy Nutz as which is the best and why?
 
That test will show you how good or bad the lock up is with a standard Rem. The accuracy loss due to an unsupported bolt, sloppy lock up. Any case distortion that happens due to 'give' in the action. We know that there will be primer cratering and possibly blanking at elevated pressures. How soon will the action lock up vs the tighter tuned Rem/Custom.

The tuned Rem vs the custom will compare how similar these two are. If there are any tangible benefits to a full meal deal custom. How each handles elevated pressures. Any issues with excessive wear/galling (not likely as this would take way too many rds fired). Smoothness of function.

As long as the barrel is not excessively large, there should be no distortion/bending of the action if left in a conventional stock set up so I don't think much will be gain this way. The rail set up would reduce human influence more.

I run most of my target cartridges at elevated pressures and see an enormous benefit in accuracy and barrel fouling. My SWAG is that I am in the magnum pressures (est 65000 to 70000psi) range. I use Hodgdon Extreme powders and all function much better at these pressures.

I know that I have run pressures much higher just to see if there is a higher node. Never found it in dozens of rifles so stop when I get to magnum levels.

Where I have the concern is when shooters run pressures into the proof load range (80000 or higher) aided by their vault tight actions - ie no pressures signs. The custom actions are not materially stronger then a conventional action so running at such high pressures can lead to metal fatigue and injury.

So far, there hasn't been any failures that I am aware of but I feel something is in the not too distant future as rd count adds up. Think IPSC but bigger!

Rockchucker, go with the action that has the port style you want and the availability that suits your build schedule. As has been said before, all the main brands are superbly built and really there is not one that is tangibly better then another. Otherwise, all the others would cease to exist.

Once you have your action, then the barrel, install, stock, load tuning, etc will determine how well it shoots.

Don't be surprised if you don't reach the accuracy goals you have set even with all this gear.

Sometimes, you don't get a hummer of a pipe....

Jerry
 
RockChucker said:
I'm almost afraid to post this for fear of stirring up the hornets nest but WTF!

Located two actions of interest available in Canada for fairly reasonable prices considering what they are. The big question will be which will be better for 1000BR work. Stiller Viper or Barnard P ? I would imagine both will work just fine but wish to hear from the accuracy Nutz as which is the best and why?
Click to expand...

I have heard nothing but fantastic things about the Barnard action.
 
good choice as marksman has said

get that along with a speedy style f class stock that looks nice

then get sorenson or marksman to put a barrel on it with a nice trigger and you are away to the races.

good luck.

Jefferson
 
Jerry,
The difference between a Remington action with normal bolt/receiver bridge clearance and one which is sleeved or "bumped" to provide zero clearance is roughly .050 moa in the vertical plane. Other deficiencies are a bit harder to quantify since corrective action may change too much. I have devised systems to test all but I doubt I will live long enough to do the testing. The need to earn money interfers!
Rockchucker,
I really like the Barnard action. I like the existence of an inner shoulder against which I can seat the barrel. Seating the barrel at two points adds rigidity to the joint. I like that the receiver and bolt are hard. Dislikes? I would like to see more primary extraction and more camming action on closing. Difficult to accomplish on a three lug action. I wish the scope mount screws were a standard thread rather than metric. That's just weird! Regards, Bill.
 
rpollock said:
What does Dennis do to your actions and what does it cost?
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For a while now I have been planning to post a procedure with pictures showing how I barrel an action using some of the latest "Benchrest Gunsmithing Methods" and also what I do to a 700 action. It will also involve testing run out before and after.

It has been put on hold until I can fit it in. I am too busy to stop and just do that... I will probably post it in the gunsmithing forum when I do... and I will post prices.

I too think Bernard actions are quite nice and the metric mounting screws quite stupid and Bat actions are a superb work of art.... but a bit too shiny for me.
 
Leeper, that is some funcky testing to get 0.05MOA as a result. Cool.

That is a whole lot less effect than I would have expected. Almost of no consequence.

Keep testing and letting us know how it goes.

How did that floating bolt head work on your Rem?

Jerry
 
My bolt head is fitted closely enough that there is no real float. This is true of the Savages as well. When there is "float", it is likely to be only in one direction as the retaining pin fits closely enough to limit float in that plane.
The Remington test was on my own 40X nearly 30 years ago and was based on a half dozen match aggregates before and after. The amount of improvement I saw was about the same as that described by others later on.
Bolt fit seems to be a relatively small part of the puzzle within reason and other factors have more effect. For instance; I had one custom action which featured a very nice fit of the bolt to the receiver but had other issues including a too light striker spring and poorly aligned receiver threads. After the first barrel I tried on it didn't shoot. I fitted the barrel from my 40X to it. this barrel was a 6x47 (for you youngsters, this 6x47 had nothing to do with Lapua but was the 222 Rem Mag necked up) which shot very well indeed. In fact it was the first rifle I had with which I was able to agg under .250 moa. On the new action though, this barrel was a solid .4 performer. I was to spend quite a bit on this action before I finally gave up on it. I would like to have it back now and try again. I know more now and maybe could fix it.
So I don't believe a good barrel will fix a poor action. I also don't think a perfect action will fix a poor barrel. Rifles are a system comprised of a number of parts and all aspects have to be right to get the best out of them.
Performance can be bought or it can be built. I don't ridicule the buyers and can handle their disdain for my old homemade stuff OK. Regards, Bill.
 
Stiller vs. Barnard...

I haven't seen a Stiller, I would like to. The Barnard is a skookum action, I LOVE the heavy three-lug bolt, I love the bolt release system (Why aren't ALL actions done like this). I love the recoil lug options, I love the trigger.

While a CM action is arguably a better way to go, I wish they had them in Stainless. I wouldn't hesitate to buy or recommend a Barnard. I like them better than the Nesika I use.
 
Leeper, yes, the pin on my Savage bolt will only allow the head to swivel along the axis with the bolt lugs - a very good thing. There is quite a lot of movement in my bolts which I feel is one of the main benefits of this action.

There is about 1/16" or more which is huge considering that only a few thous of wiggle is needed to seat in the receiver. Looking at the wear on the lug faces (no I don't always lube :-0), the seating is very even and have significant contact. You could say I am lapping them in through use.

The bolt head does move in the axis of the pin but that is much less and likely of little consequence. But then, any give just allows the lugs to seat even under some pretty wonky receiver alignments.

As you described, the bouncing/movement of the Rem bolt when the sear falls can induce some vertical amoungst other not so desired things. Again, that floating Savage bolt head ensures that the bolt is disconnected from the bolt head. There is little to no influence during the firing process and my rifles have been blessed with almost no vertical dispersion after proper load work up.

Some will consider this a bad thing but because of the wobbly bolt head, that firing pin hole has to be quite large allowing for primer cratering to be quite visible at high pressures. For me, I consider this my 'pop off valve' and keeps me from going too toasty in my loads.

The warm side of magnum pressure is plenty for me.

I love your description of the 6x47 'old'. You might be better off describing it as a 6mm-204 Ruger. Not sure how many remember the 222Rem mag?????

Keep experimenting. Buying tech is great and easy, but without you and others whittling away, how will we figure out the next best thing??????

Jerry
 
this barrel was a 6x47 (for you youngsters, this 6x47 had nothing to do with Lapua but was the 222 Rem Mag necked up) which shot very well indeed. In fact it was the first rifle I had with which I was able to agg under .250 moa.

I did not realize you were that old,:D:D:D
Just for information I still shoot a 6X47T, Gee maybe I am that old too, :weird:
 
I'm especially interested in actions for short range benchrest. One action that people have mentioned here that interested me is the Barnard. I looked up their site and they said the Barnard P was for benchrest shooting all right, but the 6BR site didn't have the action recommended for short range benchrest. Instead the S action was recommended for Prone at 300+ meters and the P action for Palma. How seriously should one take these ratings? Would the Barnard P action be a good one for short range benchrest competition? It really looks like a good deal with the inclusion of a match grade trigger, but the trigger only goes down to 8 oz which, rightly or wrongly, is another thing that might stop me. I understand from reading that 1.5 oz is the norm in some circles.
 
I think the Model S is an ideal short range BR action although just a little heavy. I recently built one in 6PPC for a customer. I've yet to get feedback from him but it seemed promising. There were aspects of the build which were a bit different than what I would normally do; the main one being that it was a screw in rather than being glued. I used a Jewel 1.5 oz trigger on this (slight modification required) and it worked out very well.
I always kind of thought 3 lug actions offered improved lateral stability to the bolt but, with close tolerances, it's probably meaningless. Obviously, two lug actions shoot just fine.
The basis for the best shooting rifle I ever used was a three lug action; the Wichita Mini. The mini was a rather unique action which featured a bolt with a shellholder style bolt face. You removed the bolt and inserted the cartridge into the bolt. No machine gunning with these things! I think I and Lowell Boyd were the only Canadian shooters to use these actions. Lowell bought his from me when I worked in Kamloops. With the rifle built on this action (a 6PPC), I had a rifle with which I could fire a .150 or better group anytime conditions were calm. I won most of the matches I shot it in even winning the LV class in the NW Regionals in Washington. I sold the rifle in 1982 since I wasn't shooting much BR anymore. I'd like to have it back!
That action made it possible for me to demonstrate that a poor barrel will suck regardless of the platform to which it is attached. The original barrel was a Hart which, as stated, would shoot at the .150 or better level anytime conditions would allow. I shot it for one season then decided to make a change. Why? Good question and I have no answer which makes me look anything but stupid! Anyway, I replaced it with a barrel from Bob Sherer and turned that match winning rifle into a complete turkey. Maybe not a complete turkey; I could still do reasonably well with it but it was now a .250 rifle. The original barrel was set back and installed on my old 40X, now also a 6PPC, and it performed nearly as well as on the Wichita.
It seems I have once again gotten off the topic; I apologize to all. Back to the topic, I would not hesitate to use a Barnard S as the basis for a short range BR rifle or anythings else requiring a precision action. I think it is a great value. Just be sure and have Ian send you some scope mount screws.
Bill,
I am getting old alright but am still fit and, I like to think, handsome! Much moreso than other more mature shooters on the board like yourself and Dennis!
Regards, Bill.
 
Leeper said:
I think the Model S is an ideal short range BR action although just a little heavy. I recently built one in 6PPC for a customer. I've yet to get feedback from him but it seemed promising. There were aspects of the build which were a bit different than what I would normally do; the main one being that it was a screw in rather than being glued. I used a Jewel 1.5 oz trigger on this (slight modification required) and it worked out very well.
I always kind of thought 3 lug actions offered improved lateral stability to the bolt but, with close tolerances, it's probably meaningless. Obviously, two lug actions shoot just fine.
...I would not hesitate to use a Barnard S as the basis for a short range BR rifle or anythings else requiring a precision action. I think it is a great value. Just be sure and have Ian send you some scope mount screws.
Regards, Bill.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, much appreciated. Yup, I went back and checked, both S & P are 3 lug systems, and they both come with a hanger to accept a trigger such as a Remington Clone. I like the Sako extractor idea. I had one installed on a Remington I owned at one time and it work very well. Firing pin size is just below optimum according to some (0.062 vs 0.068). I doubt that matters much, though I don't really know. There are options available for loading and ejection, which I don't have the basis for judging yet. But this has to be a good option, since it is mentioned in introductory material. I tend toward shooting fairly fast and, apparently this is becoming important in br. Don't understand the concern about weight. Is it that one might have trouble making weight in their class?
 
Weight

BCFred said:
Don't understand the concern about weight. Is it that one might have trouble making weight in their class?
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is an issue if you want to build a LV 10.5lb gun. It is best to know the weight of all the components you are using B4 you order the barrel. This way the barrel can be contoured to make weight. Nothing worse then ordering a barrel that is to heavy for the components or that will throw the gun completely off balance.

I was advised to build my first BR gun as a LV and learn the game on it. It definately is easier to shoot a 13.5 lb HV versus the lighter. I see it in my Rem 700 6 BR which is only 2 lbs heavier then the LV.
 
cycbb486 said:
is an issue if you want to build a LV 10.5lb gun. It is best to know the weight of all the components you are using B4 you order the barrel. This way the barrel can be contoured to make weight. Nothing worse then ordering a barrel that is to heavy for the components or that will throw the gun completely off balance.

I was advised to build my first BR gun as a LV and learn the game on it. It definately is easier to shoot a 13.5 lb HV versus the lighter. I see it in my Rem 700 6 BR which is only 2 lbs heavier then the LV.
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Light varmint was what I had in mind. So, 10.5 pounds it is and I will check the weights on components as you say. Getting the barrel contoured to make weight seems like good tip too. My bias would be to reduce barrel length and keep it as fat as possible. Actually have been watching for a secondhand rig to start with, but haven't been aware of anything in Canada that I might buy. Am reluctant to import from the U.S., where there appears to be any number of good secondhand rigs. Keep bouncing back and forth between deciding whether to buy a setup second hand or build my own. The harder it is to find good secondhand rigs, of course, the more inclined a guy is to buy new. I feel there is alot to be said for either course. :confused: Have given myself a year to set up before firing a shot. Will just accept what you say about the difference a few pounds makes... fred
 
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