cut and crown
- Thread starter triton
- Start date
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Me too!
I'm interested in taking 2" off the barrel of my Uberti 7" revolver. Certified gunsmiths are in short supply here, so I'm
wondering also about a DIY job for a semi-skilled amateur with an extensive hand tool collection...
I've rebuilt a few M-14s but I've never shortened a barrel.
I'm interested in taking 2" off the barrel of my Uberti 7" revolver. Certified gunsmiths are in short supply here, so I'm
wondering also about a DIY job for a semi-skilled amateur with an extensive hand tool collection...
I've rebuilt a few M-14s but I've never shortened a barrel.
So easy that you will wonder why you didn't do it before.
Put tape around it where you want to cut and stuff a patch down past your intended cut to keep filings out.
Stick the gun down the leg of an old pair of pants.
Use a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade to cut it off - don't worry much about square.
File it square - this is not as hard as you think - and a trifle off does not affect it as much as you would think.
A cup shaped tool in a hand drill with sandpaper spinning makes a decent rounded crown - again, easier than it sounds.
If you leave the outer edge of the crown just a little sharp, then all you have to blue is the very muzzle.
Chamfer the bore just a little with ... well ... I use a five edged chamfer tool, but try a drill bit on the piece you cut off and see if it works without too much chatter. A brass rod rounded with valve grinding compound will finish off the bore - I use an old brass dart ( from a dart game. )
Dab some blue on it - it won't stay but few used rifles have any blue on the muzzle anyways..
Use a Q-tip to check for burrs on the inside. If there are tiny burrs, the first shots will turn them out and then you can lap them off.
Clean the bore - not a good idea to leave that plug down the barrel - it just messes everything up.
Be amazed at how much more accurate the old gun gets with a fresh exit hole.
Put tape around it where you want to cut and stuff a patch down past your intended cut to keep filings out.
Stick the gun down the leg of an old pair of pants.
Use a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade to cut it off - don't worry much about square.
File it square - this is not as hard as you think - and a trifle off does not affect it as much as you would think.
A cup shaped tool in a hand drill with sandpaper spinning makes a decent rounded crown - again, easier than it sounds.
If you leave the outer edge of the crown just a little sharp, then all you have to blue is the very muzzle.
Chamfer the bore just a little with ... well ... I use a five edged chamfer tool, but try a drill bit on the piece you cut off and see if it works without too much chatter. A brass rod rounded with valve grinding compound will finish off the bore - I use an old brass dart ( from a dart game. )
Dab some blue on it - it won't stay but few used rifles have any blue on the muzzle anyways..
Use a Q-tip to check for burrs on the inside. If there are tiny burrs, the first shots will turn them out and then you can lap them off.
Clean the bore - not a good idea to leave that plug down the barrel - it just messes everything up.
Be amazed at how much more accurate the old gun gets with a fresh exit hole.
David Henry
CGN Regular
- Location
- West of the big road
anchor3593, Your head couldn't be further up your ass even if god placed it there. I don't know anyone that can file cut a muzzle perfectly square with or without the pant leg trick and the 5 edged chafer tool. And no we don't want to here about the sniper rifles you tune up in your spare time.
Using commercial piloted tooling or correctly dialing in the bore on the lathe to cut a crown is something that a professional gunsmith will charge somewhere in the region of $50-$100 for depending on disassembly and reassembly time. D.H.
Using commercial piloted tooling or correctly dialing in the bore on the lathe to cut a crown is something that a professional gunsmith will charge somewhere in the region of $50-$100 for depending on disassembly and reassembly time. D.H.
wow just wow!!!
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Wow you have got to be kidding me hahahaha
I wondered if my post would offend someone who is sure that it won't work.
I know that having a piloted reamer to do the job will make a truer square on the muzzle - however, it is surprising how "true" is not as important as the new, fresh edge of the fresh cut muzzle.
It may be that a piloted reamer going into the bore of your barrel will do no damage but I just don't like the thought of putting a steel tool into the beautiful rifling - isn't that one of the reasons that the old 303s are worn so inaccurate? Some shops may have piloted reamers for every calibre - I suppose.
If I use the lathe to cut the crown, shall I center on the outside of the barrel? - I don't think so - the bore is seldom in the center of the barrel - and if my new lathe-cut crown is at all off-center, will that be better than lapping?
Lapping is a very useful method of removing just a little material, and it is guided by the surrounding metal - like the cone shaped chamfer tool centered itself in the bore, so also the lapping tool centers itself perfectly.
Get a very very good magnifying glass and look at the muzzles of some of your old guns very carefully - with bright light. The rifling is worn and the mouth of the bore is rounded. This is the last contact that the bullet has with the bore and makes a great difference in accuracy. Sometimes there are even rust pits that build up copper or lead and copper. It seems that the bore just inside the muzzle is the most affected by corrosion.
Don't try it if you don't like to learn - or do try it on a gun which shoots patterns rather than groups.
Oh - the pants slid over the gun is to protect it - I don't know what sort of cradle a guy might be using while working on the gun - so a little extra protection can't hurt.
Sorry if I've offended anyones certainties.
I know that having a piloted reamer to do the job will make a truer square on the muzzle - however, it is surprising how "true" is not as important as the new, fresh edge of the fresh cut muzzle.
It may be that a piloted reamer going into the bore of your barrel will do no damage but I just don't like the thought of putting a steel tool into the beautiful rifling - isn't that one of the reasons that the old 303s are worn so inaccurate? Some shops may have piloted reamers for every calibre - I suppose.
If I use the lathe to cut the crown, shall I center on the outside of the barrel? - I don't think so - the bore is seldom in the center of the barrel - and if my new lathe-cut crown is at all off-center, will that be better than lapping?
Lapping is a very useful method of removing just a little material, and it is guided by the surrounding metal - like the cone shaped chamfer tool centered itself in the bore, so also the lapping tool centers itself perfectly.
Get a very very good magnifying glass and look at the muzzles of some of your old guns very carefully - with bright light. The rifling is worn and the mouth of the bore is rounded. This is the last contact that the bullet has with the bore and makes a great difference in accuracy. Sometimes there are even rust pits that build up copper or lead and copper. It seems that the bore just inside the muzzle is the most affected by corrosion.
Don't try it if you don't like to learn - or do try it on a gun which shoots patterns rather than groups.
Oh - the pants slid over the gun is to protect it - I don't know what sort of cradle a guy might be using while working on the gun - so a little extra protection can't hurt.
Sorry if I've offended anyones certainties.
Brownells sells a Piloted (brass) muzzle chamfering tool that I've used on a few rifles ( 303, 35, 50 muzzle stuffer) with very good success. If you want to inspect the bore stick a Q-Tip in the muzzle and use a magnifying glass, the Q -Tip really brightens up the area. Also if you spin the Q around and see pieces of fibre then you have a burr. If it doesn't lift fibres your almost good to go. I polished the muzzle with a brass ball and valve compound. For me this gave a noticeable improvement on the target but this was for a hunting type rifle. If it's for target use, give it to a smith.
I'm with anchor here
this method has been used countless times
also, there is evidence the crown shape is not very important
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crownr.html
this method has been used countless times
also, there is evidence the crown shape is not very important
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crownr.html
Piloted reamers are used all the time for chambering to no ill effect.
- Location
- WMU247 near Edmonton
I use a lathe.
And yes the bore is not often centered. Last enfield I did was 0.010" off center. Just chuck it up in the 4 jaw chuck.
Most of the rifles I recrown are to fix someones hacksaw job.
And yes the bore is not often centered. Last enfield I did was 0.010" off center. Just chuck it up in the 4 jaw chuck.
Most of the rifles I recrown are to fix someones hacksaw job.
Those are very interesting links LegiOn - thank-you.
I may have missed it, but I saw neither experiment do a perfect recrown and shoot again to see what improvement can be made over the original on the rifle.
I did not expect a point of impact change like that from being hit by a hammer on the muzzle - it was making decent groups - just on a different target.
The mess that they made of the rifling on the one gun may have been all the way around - results may have differed if it were only one side damaged.
I dropped a gun a few years ago - had it clamped between my arm and my side as I did up my coat or something - then I got bumped, spreading my arm away from my side and the rifle went straight down - and made a nasty divot in the muzzle - off to the side of the bore. It needed resighting after but it still shoots nice. Now I wonder if I should dig it out and recrown it and see if the point of impact moves back again.
I don't have a 100 yard table set up, so I shoot at 2 - and the results of this simple job have always been remarkable - on hunting rifles.
Yes Big Boar - a brass bushed pilot would be great. I'll check them out.
Edit: So Brownells has some nice little cutters - 150$ per calibre - or a two calibre set with a crank for 370$ - or a facer for 58$ or 75$ plus a pilot for 25$ or 35$. Steel or brass pilots. If a guy was into one calibre - say doing bench rest - it would be worth it. I wonder that they turn the pilots in the bore rather than having a small steel pilot with a brass bushing to bring it up to bore size - so the brass doesn't get chewed up on the rifling as it spins.
Kamlooky - thanks - I have lived on this earth for some time now - and enjoy many precious memories - but in my memory, I have not received such a "compliment" as an above poster saw fit to bestow. Yes - we all see things differently - and one thing that changes folks is poverty. When we have money, we fix stuff with cash - when we have been poor, we learn to make do or do without. Po' folks are alway inventing - but it is not marketable to folks that has cash.
More Edit: So I'm looking at the pictures and thinking that they sure look like Lee Case Length cutters - which also have a pilot which would be - um - the size of the inside of the neck of a case - which could have a bushing made to fit. So I run/stroll to the reloading bench to see a few of them - and doubt that they are made suitable to cut steel but I don't know yet for sure - barrel steel is quite soft. The Lee cutters are about .495 to .510 or thereabouts in diameter so they wouldn't square off the whole face of the muzzle. Wrapping paper around the pilot might be a fairly accurate way to bush it up to size ( cue howling). It is late for this old codger - g'night.
I may have missed it, but I saw neither experiment do a perfect recrown and shoot again to see what improvement can be made over the original on the rifle.
I did not expect a point of impact change like that from being hit by a hammer on the muzzle - it was making decent groups - just on a different target.
The mess that they made of the rifling on the one gun may have been all the way around - results may have differed if it were only one side damaged.
I dropped a gun a few years ago - had it clamped between my arm and my side as I did up my coat or something - then I got bumped, spreading my arm away from my side and the rifle went straight down - and made a nasty divot in the muzzle - off to the side of the bore. It needed resighting after but it still shoots nice. Now I wonder if I should dig it out and recrown it and see if the point of impact moves back again.
I don't have a 100 yard table set up, so I shoot at 2 - and the results of this simple job have always been remarkable - on hunting rifles.
Yes Big Boar - a brass bushed pilot would be great. I'll check them out.
Edit: So Brownells has some nice little cutters - 150$ per calibre - or a two calibre set with a crank for 370$ - or a facer for 58$ or 75$ plus a pilot for 25$ or 35$. Steel or brass pilots. If a guy was into one calibre - say doing bench rest - it would be worth it. I wonder that they turn the pilots in the bore rather than having a small steel pilot with a brass bushing to bring it up to bore size - so the brass doesn't get chewed up on the rifling as it spins.
Kamlooky - thanks - I have lived on this earth for some time now - and enjoy many precious memories - but in my memory, I have not received such a "compliment" as an above poster saw fit to bestow. Yes - we all see things differently - and one thing that changes folks is poverty. When we have money, we fix stuff with cash - when we have been poor, we learn to make do or do without. Po' folks are alway inventing - but it is not marketable to folks that has cash.
More Edit: So I'm looking at the pictures and thinking that they sure look like Lee Case Length cutters - which also have a pilot which would be - um - the size of the inside of the neck of a case - which could have a bushing made to fit. So I run/stroll to the reloading bench to see a few of them - and doubt that they are made suitable to cut steel but I don't know yet for sure - barrel steel is quite soft. The Lee cutters are about .495 to .510 or thereabouts in diameter so they wouldn't square off the whole face of the muzzle. Wrapping paper around the pilot might be a fairly accurate way to bush it up to size ( cue howling). It is late for this old codger - g'night.
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OP, a lot of old milsurps were counter bored rather than re barrel or re crown a still useful bore. This is not something to do properly without a lathe. But that being said, I have seen more than one old rifle with a damaged crown or rusty muzzle done with a electric hand drill or even in a drill press while being held in a vice. The drill press makes a reasonably good job as you can center your job with a chucked up drop point tool and clamping the vice in place. Then replace the drop point tool with an appropriate drill and drill out the offending area to just past the depth where the rifling is acceptable. Yes it's quick and cheap but it works more often than not and there are thousands of milsurps that have been done in a similar manner. I have seen a couple of M91/30 rifles and a few SKSs with the counter bore so offset I doubted they would shoot well. All I can say is I was wrong.
Another poo pooed method is to take a button head screw, chuck it up in your hand drill, apply some coarse cloverleaf abrasive compound and apply it to the muzzle. It may not be perfect but it will be bright and shiny and likely shoot a lot better than it did.
If you are setting up a match rifle or have an extremely accurate rifle then take it to a smith that knows how to center the bore in his/her lathe and pay them to do the job. When millimeters count at 100/200/300 yards and beyond, a few thou off center can make a big difference to taking out the center dot.
For a fixer upper Lee Enfield this sort of accuracy just isn't necessary.
Another poo pooed method is to take a button head screw, chuck it up in your hand drill, apply some coarse cloverleaf abrasive compound and apply it to the muzzle. It may not be perfect but it will be bright and shiny and likely shoot a lot better than it did.
If you are setting up a match rifle or have an extremely accurate rifle then take it to a smith that knows how to center the bore in his/her lathe and pay them to do the job. When millimeters count at 100/200/300 yards and beyond, a few thou off center can make a big difference to taking out the center dot.
For a fixer upper Lee Enfield this sort of accuracy just isn't necessary.
