Cutting a 16" Barrel to 11.5" on a Dedicated 22LR Rig

[alberta tactical rifle]

I agree. No one wants to be a test case... me included.

Ultimately it is up to the courts to clarify these vague interpretations. The mere fact that 3 different RCMP techs gave you 3 different answers clearly shows that it is impossible for the average person to know when he or she is breaking the law and legally that alone should mean the courts must find in the defendant's favour. Crowns would know that and prefer NOT to have the courts make such a precident setting ruling so in theory the crown would decline such a prosecution... but again, who wants to be the test case.

Perhaps what we (Business Firearms License Holders) need is a written clarification from the head of the RCMP's Forensic Labs/Section stating their position on these various scenarios and their position on the legality of all the various methods of shortening barrels of different type (new creations, blanks, etc.). Of course getting that written clarification could take months or years... but it is something we should be trying to get them to clarify further.

Just my opinion.

Mark

I think your opinion is spot on!! It would be a long grueling task I fear

 

[2bad4u2]

I believe the important thing is to get everything in writing so that if the "##### hits the ventilateur" and some over zealous cop decides he wants to confiscate your rifle and charge you for a C.C. violation based on his or his superior's interpretation of law.

In regards to my inquiry with RCMP Tech Lab, the rifle of interest was a bolt action Remington 700.

Here's what I got from the RCMP Tech Lab...

Good Day Sir,

After conferring with my team leader, I have been able to confirm that it is perfectly legal to fabricate a rifle barrel shorter than 457mm (18") in length for use on a bolt-action rifle.

We would need some details on the barrel blank used, such as:

1. Make of barrel blank

2. Where it was purchased from, and, if possible, a copy of the invoice for the barrel blank.

Once this is done, we can then proceed to creating an FRT entry so that the registration for the rifle can be amended.

I think I may have covered everything.

If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to contact me.

Mike

Michael Bartlett
Firearms Technologist
Specialized Firearms Support Services (SFSS)

Ottawa Ontario K1A 0R2
Tel: 1-800-731-4000 (ext . 1090)
Fax: 613-993-5548

 

[Wrong Way]

Quote:
a rifle or shotgun that has been altered to make the barrel length less than 457 mm (18 inches) where the overall firearm length is 660 mm (26 inches) or more;



Interesting.....so, according to the law, it is illegal to cut down a barrel TO less than 18"....this assumes the barrel is over 18" to begin with. It says NOTHING about reducing the length of an existing barrel that is allready sub-18"

As I read it, it seems pretty clear: If I were to take a ruger M77, 24" tube and shorten it to 17": Prohib. But if I were to take a M77 compact, 16.5" tube, it could be shortened to 15" no problem...the barrel hasn't been altered TO a length of less than 18", it was less than 18" before.

Thoughts?

 

[tiriaq]

Cutting the barrel to less than 18" makes no reference to the original length of the longarm barrel. It can be argued that if the cut barrel winds up being less than 18" long, the original length is irrelevant. It is a matter of interpretation.

Here is another thought, further to Michael Bartlett's letter respecting the Remington 700: fit a XP100 barrel to the 700. It is a factory barrel, never shortened. Take-off XP100 barrels do turn up, because of the use of XP actions for custom rigs.

 

[Wrong Way]

Cutting the barrel to less than 18" makes no reference to the original length of the longarm barrel. It can be argued that if the cut barrel winds up being less than 18" long, the original length is irrelevant. It is a matter of interpretation.

Here is another thought, further to Michael Bartlett's letter respecting the Remington 700: fit a XP100 barrel to the 700. It is a factory barrel, never shortened. Take-off XP100 barrels do turn up, because of the use of XP actions for custom rigs.

But my point is the language. The use of the word "to" ("cut to a length of less than 18") denotes that the starting length is more than 18" to begin with.

If I gave you a 20" string and said "cut this to less than 18" ", you'd say "no problem"

But if I gave you a 10" string and said "cut this to less than 18" long" you'd say "huh? It IS less than 18" long! "

Dunno....

 

[tiriaq]

I see your point, and don't disagree with it. This is another case of badly drafted law. I suspect the intent was to discourage the production of sawed off conventional longarms. No consideration was given to any spillover into other potenetial situations. Well written law should be mutually inclusive/mutually exclusive.
Problem with opinions is that unless a person wants to be the test case, its the opinion of the powers that be that has weight.
This business about the source, etc, of the barrel blank is interesting. Is there an implicit suggestion that a barrel blank cannot be shortened in order to make a short barrel? Is it being suggested that the barrel blank for a short barrel must be manufactured at the short length?

 

[2bad4u2]

But my point is the language. The use of the word "to" ("cut to a length of less than 18") denotes that the starting length is more than 18" to begin with.

If I gave you a 20" string and said "cut this to less than 18" ", you'd say "no problem"

But if I gave you a 10" string and said "cut this to less than 18" long" you'd say "huh? It IS less than 18" long! "

Dunno....

I think the concept of the "Reasonable Man" would apply here. If your string err...barrel... was less than 18" to start with from the factory, there shouldn't be an issue with cutting it down providing the firearm's new OAL didn't result in the classification being changed to prohibited.

 

[2bad4u2]

This business about the source, etc, of the barrel blank is interesting. Is there an implicit suggestion that a barrel blank cannot be shortened in order to make a short barrel? Is it being suggested that the barrel blank for a short barrel must be manufactured at the short length?

No such inferal was made in reference in my conversation and subsequent written communication with Bartlett. Quite the oppositite. He told me as long as I had supporting documentation with regards to the barrel blank's purchase, I would be good to go.

 

[duke1]

As mentioned, it has been discussed many times. This is from theCriminal Code of Canada:

"prohibited firearm means
(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length "


.

I'm afraid that I read this law differently than a lot of people here.

My understanding is that if you have a non-restricted rifle or shotgun and cut the barrel to less that 457 mm, the firearm becomes prohibited.

But if you already have a restricted rifle with a barrel less than 457mm, cutting it down to less than this would not come under the above law.

This would be the same as cutting your handgun barrel from 8" to 6", as an example...... your handgun would not become prohibited if you did that???

This is my humble opinion and to me it makes complete sense.

Duke1

PS. For the sake of discussion regarding the following statement made in an earlier post:

"The legislation is very clear that you cannot cut the barrel of a rifle or shotgun to anything less than 470mm regardless of what its' original length was (firearm classification of restricted or non-restricted has no bearing at all)."

How can you cut something to less than 470mm if it is already less than that. So the original question of "can I cut a barrel from 16 in to 11 in" ... sure you can if the law is based on the above quote. You would not be cutting something to less than 470 as it is already there.

But of course, the lawmakers made it confusing enough so that a wide interpretation can be applied.

 

[Questar]

And what exactly is the "legal" definition of a "barrel blank" as applied to the Firearms Act? What legally "is" and what legally "is not" a barrel blank? Who gets to decide that?

Also... don't fixate on the word "cut" alone. The law says:

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,

The law does not say that a firearm modifed by installation of new parts creates a Prohibited Firearm. In fact the RCMP have for years allowed owners and gunsmiths to install replacement barrels that are under 18"... the RCMP have themselves created a history of interpreting the installation of a "new and different" barrel as NOT meaning "adapted" as used in the legislation.

The issue now appears to ONLY be the source/manufacture of the "new" replacement barrel. Clearly taking the barrel off the gun itself and cutting or altering it would be subject to the legislation quoted. But installing a factory new short barrel (according to the RCMP is NOT subject to the legislation). Installing a self built short barrel is not subject to the legislation (according to the letter quoted from the RCMP tech) if that barrel was made from a "barrel blank". This does not mean that other barrel sources are excluded.

RCMP are on a VERY slippery slope here and their desire to control this is creating problems for them... their own interpretations are very suspect and frankly contradictory.

The notion that a Gunsmith or Manufacturer is NOT legally allowed to create a short rifle/shotgun barrel EXCEPT if he/she starts from a Barrel Blank is simply NOT contained in the Firearms Act. By definition a licensed Manufacturer is approved by the governement to manufacture Firearms and components (including barrels for firearms) and there is nothing in that license that defines how that barrel has to be made. Gunsmiths have a long history of making barrels... from scratch and from existing barrels or partially finished barrels. The legislation does not reference any of that.

In fact... if the law was intended to restrict or control the alteration of barrels then the lawmakes would have / should have written a section under Prohibited Devices spelling out what could not be legally done (cut, saw or otherwise alter) a rifle or shotgun barrel... but they did not do that... they wrote about what a person cannot do to a completed rifle or shotgun... and that's all the law applies to.

Mark

 

[cie]

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,


Just to add more fuel to the fire, it could also be argued that if you started with a short barrel and added length to it but left it less than 457mm, you would also violate this paragraph. Note "other alteration" does not specify shortening although it might imply it.