Cutting down an antique smoothbore long gun

NaturalPath

NaturalPath

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I've had my eye out for an antique large bore single shot handgun, caplock would be best, but, most of what I find is just a bit out of my price range. Something like a howdah would be great but, they don't come cheap. Has anyone ever purchased an antique smoothbore long gun, with the intention of cutting it down, to make a handgun? I'm not even sure whether that would change the status or not. I've never heard of it being done. I'm not talking about using a collectable antique. I'm thinking more along the lines of a cheaper long gun that is still functional but, is classified as antique. I have a 1777 model Charleville but, I'm certainly not going to cut that down. :) However, I have seen cheap smoothbores come up on the Xchange now and then. Any thoughts?
 
There are 'gun makers' in Afganistan/Pakistan that produce howdah style pistols by reworking older long guns or parts thereof.

I thought of doing it to an old 20ga double barrel percussion shotgun that I got in a trade. The thing had been standing in a damp basement for many years and was in a terrible state. The wood on the butt had gone punky. But the locks still cocked and clicked and there was some nice engraving on the metalwork, even the screws heads were engraved.

I started drawing and laying things out on paper, I found that there are a couple of challenges to converting.

The lock plates were back action, so they had to be incorporated into the pistol handle. I noted that back action pistols had a lock plate that curved to fit and blend into the curve of the grip. When I was done sketching, the thing I designed would look awkward and I could not get a decent pistol grip to trigger set up. I seriously thought of making new lock plates, which would be a fairly straight forward fabrication, but the project Khyber was starting to get involved and way too much work for what I wanted.

I realised that the Khyber artisans had much the same challenge, but they are creative and just don't give a schit how the thing ends up looking. The uglier the better it seems at times. After all, it would be a curiosity to be sold to a GI from some market stall as a souvenir.

As for the legal side of things. If the long gun was a bonified antique class arm, then cutting it down into a pistol size, it still would be an antique. But dont take my word for it, I am no expert.

My project never got off the ground as a buddy went bonkers when he saw the gun was made by Purdey, a bespoke English gun maker. He traded me a case of beer for it. He got the thing professionally restored, cost him a small fortune, but he figured it was worth doing. I am so glad that I didn't start cutting the thing up!

So I am sure that it could be done. But the donor gun needs to be selected to allow for good ergonomics of the pistol grip in the new pistol stock. Do you have the gun to rework already ?
 
Thanks for your insight englishman_ca. Yes, I already understood that creating the proper pistol grip would probably be the biggest hurdle on this type of mod. I don't have a gun for this project yet but, I had my eye on one that was in pretty good shape and selling for only $150. So, I'm not going to be putting a whole lot of money into it. I don't mind doing the work, in fact, I'd probably enjoy the challenge. I was a custom machinist for 35 years, although, I don't have any of those machines to work with now. It just sounds like a fun project to try, even if I don't end up with a usable pistol. I can still hang it on the wall and, have a good laugh, every time I look at it. :)

My thoughts about legality were along the same lines as yours but, lets face it, any time we talk about legalities and antiques there will always be differing opinions. The fact is, the only opinion that matters is, that of the attending LEO, if I should happen to encounter one, while out in the bush with my sawed off antique gun. Heck, even if it wasn't sawed off, there is no guarantee that things would go my way.

Yes, I will be checking out the pistol grip, on any long gun, to make sure that it gives me the best chance of doing this kind of mod. And, like I said, I'm not going to be putting a lot of money into this. It's just a fun project and, if it works out, that's great. If it doesn't I still had fun trying.

infideleggwelder; I don't think that there is any legal minimum length for this kind of thing. It's not like with shotguns, where there are definite dimensions to adhere to. These are antique status guns I'd be working with so, they are considered non-firearms, unless used in commission of a crime. But, like I said before, there's only one opinion that matters and, it's the same regarding any antique guns, not just a modified one. I have other antique handguns and, I have an FRT for them but, that still doesn't guarantee anything.
 
I've seen 577 Sniders which had been reworked into Howda pistols. The fine print in this scenario is ( guessing here, pls take note of this!) maybe is it was a period rework.
Doing it to an unaltered piece might cross a legal line. But this also poses the question of someone proving when it was done...
But a 577 Snyder would be a fairly potent round, between an 20 and a 28 gauge BP.
 
Yep, I hear what you're saying tokguy. Having said that, I've never seen any indication, from reading laws regarding antiques, that modifying them in this way would cause them to lose their antique status. I've read a lot of the threads, on this forum, about legalities and antique status guns and, it seems to me that, there is a lot of confusion surrounding antique guns and, that confusion is not just on the side of Joe citizen.
 
Since an antique is not considered a firearm, i guess cutting it wont change the status but that is me
 
In the 1950's I saw a few single shot pistols that had been made from simple bolt action .22 rifles, Cooeys and such. Most were clumsy and awkward because of the trigger placement and the grip being too far back. However I saw one that looked very professional, a complete restock with the grip under the action and a trigger connector similar to the Remington XP 100 pistol, it was compact, looked great and balanced perfectly. A single shot would be much simpler to convert this way than a double.
 
The RCMP have been imaginative in their interpretation of the laws. For example the law says that a handgun that is not a named caliber and is made before 1898 is an antique but the RCMP now say that it has to have been originally made in a antique caliber to be an antique. To quote a reply I received; "you cannot make an antique out of a 150 year old prohib. (I converted a 32 S&W to 22 Morris). Currently you can change the caliber of an antique handgun to another antique cartridge and retain its status but not convert a restricted caliber to an antique and gain antique status.

the point I am getting at in this long winded reply is that the RCMP could choose to say that when you change the category of an antique longarm to a handgun, the gun is being new manufactured and therefore modern. If I am correct in that statement, you could probably convert the antique fowler to a handgun but would have to then register it as long as the barrel was over 105 mm. Individuals are allowed to make firearms including handguns, for their own use, as long as they are not prohibited but if restricted must then register them

cheers mooncoon
 
Yep, I knew about the handgun caliber changes that could affect antique cartridge handguns, I just didn't want to muddy the waters on this particular topic. Of course, 'interpretation' is everything and, just like opinions, everybody has one. I think that the ultimate answers to my questions will remain maybe, if or, possibly etc. As has been stated in other threads on the topic of the legalities of antiques, it would probably take a court case, in order to set a precedent. Personally, I would not want to be that precedent setter but, on the other hand, I've never been one to back away from doing something that I wanted to do, just because it might.............:)
 
The question comes down to will you come to the attention of the local police and will they confiscate and recommend charges. The first part depends on how much discretion you use when and where you shoot it as well as how many people know you have the gun. The second portion hinges on the views and mindset of the officer who investigates you. In my experience, very few of the police have any knowledge of antiques nor of the laws pertaining to them. You stand an excellent chance of going to court over the gun. At that point the court will rely on the opinion of a police "expert witness", quite probably someone associated with the firearms program identification technicians. The mindset of their superiors seems to be increasingly conservative on what should be considered antique and therefore unregistered. Not good odds for you in my opinion.

Maybe someone on here can chime in with what if anything is said in the firearms act and criminal code on the degree to which we can modify an antique and have it remain an antique legally.

cheers mooncoon
 
Yep, I definitely understand what you're saying mc and, everyone's situation would be different. In my particular situation, I live in the middle of the wilderness so, there are many places I can go that are far from any constabulary oversight. :) The only people who know that I have any guns are my immediate family. Yep, the investigating officers opinion is everything. They can charge you with whatever they want and, you will have to prove your innocence. That's the way the law works and, it leaves the door wide open to abuse, by LEO's. I always look at every angle, before I make any decisions that might have undesirable consequences but, in the end, I'm going to live life the way I want to live it. If it doesn't work out for me then, either, I wasn't smart enough or, I just caught a bad break. That's life. I've always lived like that and, I'm still here and, living the same way.
 
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