CZ 452 Varmint accuracy, and the barrel lug... opinions?

Maybe he doesn't realize 1 MOA at 100 = 1.0472"? I can't even hit 90% under 1 MOA with Lapua Midas +! 50-60 fps ES with "match" ammo precludes it from happening. "Practice" ammo with 80-100 fps ES is going to average over 1.5-2" for sure, bulk ammo shoots less than 1 MOA 90% of the time? Is this a joke?

I'd still be impressed if Mr. tuffbuff could shoot 9/10 5 shot groups under 1/2" at 50 yards, the 1 MOA equivalent, where the difficulty factor is reduced by a factor of about 3x since wind drift and bullet drop due to velocity variance will be greatly reduced. Go ahead sir, do so with you "bulk" ammo of choice.

Please check post 438 in the 1/2" challege for 50yd groups sorry there's only 9 not 10. Also check out my fancy wobbly shooting bench and rests in #437, do ya think if I got a cement bench and one of those cool front adjustable rests like you guys would help to shrink some groups? Or maybe some different ammo, what might you recommend?
 
Last edited:
I don't believe that anyone has a magic .22LR off-the-shelf rifle that shoots bulk ammo MOA at 100 yards 90% of the time. The odds that anyone has such a rifle and bulk ammo combination are staggeringly slim. Even the best shooters can't do it because it is statistically impossible with bulk ammo. It is in fact very difficult to do with a stock CZ 452 with good match ammo. The reason I take exception to claims like this is because it gives readers false impressions. Those who may not know better may come to wrongly believe that a stock sporting rifle like a CZ can shoot MOA at 100 yards consistently and regularly with bulk ammo.

But to be fair to you, and to put doubters (like me) in their place, why don't you show us ten groups of five shots at 100 yards with the bulk ammo of your choice. If any five of them -- let alone nine of them -- are MOA, I'll figuratively eat my hat by saying I was wrong. You would go down in history as the guy with the luckiest stock CZ 452 Varmint shooting the most extraordinary bulk ammo.

Mines not a Varmit :) its a Style so would that make it all the more difficult with a sporter barrel? I will have to look for my target - if i recall it was 8 groups at 100 - 5 were well under 1" and the average was .9 ( what is MOA again? ) So if were talking average then yep it will do it, if single groups then I guess 2/3 of the time. This is the only time I've shot it at 100.

I'm just backing up the other guy you called out, as you don't think it can be done but I have. Some people have Savages that can shoot to it seems, although I don't care for them but also don't ridicule there posts...

Sorry for the derail OP - don't worry about the lug :wave:
 
Last edited:
Please check post 438 in the 1/2" challege for 50yd groups sorry there's only 9 not 10. Also check out my fancy wobbly shooting bench and rests in #437, do ya think if I got a cement bench and one of those cool front adjustable rests like you guys would help to shrink some groups? Or maybe some different ammo, what might you recommend?

I'm right there with ya shooting off wobbly wooden benches, and there's nothing wrong with a front sandbag, I used one for years until I got the Caldwell rest. I see you also have to shim it up, I made a crude adjustable "platform" for my sandbag by running 3" deck screws through the 4 corners of a piece of plywood sized for the sandbag. Did the trick. Could improve that by epoxying 3/8" nuts into the platform then running 3/8" threaded rod with pointed tips for the support legs.

Checked out your 1/2" challenge post, 1) I'm always impressed by a CZ that shoots that well, I've personally lost faith in the brand after too many encounters with poor performers. 2) Also great shooting for high velocity ammo, and I have no doubts to the honesty of that performance at 50 yards. I've personally shot similar with SK High Velocity, the ammo you used is comparable. Based on my chronograph results, I would not place bets on the SK to maintain MOA performance out to 100 yards though. Theoretically, there's a 60fps ES tolerance to keep HV ammo under 1" at 100, entirely plausible for Aguila and CCI to hit that for a number of groups, but I have no chronograph data on either of them. 90% under 1 MOA is still a real stretch for that ammo at 100 if it's anything like the SK HV or even RWS Rifle Match "S" for that matter.

I do believe, however, the claim was using "bulk" ammo, and what you used is a step above "bulk".

Grab yerself some Golden Bullets, Thunderbolts, Winchester (222, 333, or 555 packs) or Federal blue box Power-Shok and have another go at the 50 yard challenge and 100 yard "bulk ammo" claim.
 
Mines not a Varmit :) its a Style so would that make it all the more difficult with a sporter barrel? I will have to look for my target - if i recall it was 8 groups at 100 - 5 were well under 1" and the average was .9 ( what is MOA again? ) So if were talking average then yep it will do it, if single groups then I guess 2/3 of the time. This is the only time I've shot it at 100.
I'm just backing up the other guy you called out, as you don't think it can be done but I have. Some people have Savages that can shoot to it seems, although I don't care for them but also don't ridicule there posts...
If MOA can be achieved with bulk ammo at 100 yards, I would be pleased and amazed to see the results -- and so, too, I imagine, would a lot of shooters everywhere. Simply do it again to put an end to doubters such as me. If it can't be done, I will attribute it to overconfidence in the accuracy of bulk ammo and overenthusiasm for how well stock CZ rimfire rifles -- be they Varmints, Styles, or whatever model, 452, 453, or 455 -- can shoot. It hasn't been my intention to ridicule anyone, even though I'm one of those posters who knows full well that he can't shoot MOA with bulk ammo at 50, let alone 100 yards.
 
I am already amazed holy cow. Now waiting to be pleased!

2hn28h3.jpg
 
i took my 452 Varmint out today for the first time and shot at 40m. brought a wide selection of ammo to try but i didnt get a chance to try them all.
i think the eley club shot the best but i dont know why i had that one group open up.
the groups were measured from edge to edge. i did not deduct 0.22" from the numbers you see on the target.

f9m45z.jpg


2mo8tom.jpg


260rd34.jpg


29ctml0.jpg


2h508zr.jpg


260bzuo.jpg
 


8 groups - 6 under "moa" for 75% my mistake. Any questions ?

Those are very nice results shown in the target. I mean that sincerely. I don't want to beat the issue to death, but I do have questions before figuratively eating my hat.

The target indicates that the ammo is CCI AR Tactical. Is that right? The ammo goes for about $30 for a box of 300, more at some locations. (To put it in perspective, CCI Standard Velocity can be had for $52 for a brick of 500.) To be sure, the AR Tactical is less expensive than most entry-level match ammo. But the claim was made that MOA was consistently achieved with bulk ammo. Is CCI AR Tactical "bulk ammo"?

Looking at what's written in the first row, between the third and fourth bulls, the target indicates that the 50 yard average was .55 inches. Is that correct? That is not MOA or better at 50 yards. The inescapable fact is that average group size at 50 more than doubles at 100 yards, yet the assertion is that 75% of the targets at 100 had MOA or better results. How can that be?

Finally, was the "dud" in the bottom row's middle target not counted? If not, why? Fliers and "duds" are to be expected from bulk ammo and fliers and duds do count, all the time. (There are no mulligans.) That's one reason why bulk doesn't shoot MOA with consistency.

Nevertheless, when all is said and done, I tip my hat to you for achieving very good results with relatively inexpensive high velocity ammo, although it must be noted that there isn't very much expensive match quality HV ammo available to begin with.
 
Fact is you can't submit a target shot at 50 yds that's under moa and claim it to be under moa @100.I would love to see a 5X5 shot group's at 100 .YOU cannot just double the group sizes at 50 on rimfires it's probably closer to 3x.Wind and muzzle velocity change the outcome dramaticly from 50 to 100.
 
G
Those are very nice results shown in the target. I mean that sincerely. I don't want to beat the issue to death, but I do have questions before figuratively eating my hat.

The target indicates that the ammo is CCI AR Tactical. Is that right? The ammo goes for about $30 for a box of 300, more at some locations. (To put it in perspective, CCI Standard Velocity can be had for $52 for a brick of 500.) To be sure, the AR Tactical is less expensive than most entry-level match ammo. But the claim was made that MOA was consistently achieved with bulk ammo. Is CCI AR Tactical "bulk ammo"?

Looking at what's written in the first row, between the third and fourth bulls, the target indicates that the 50 yard average was .55 inches. Is that correct? That is not MOA or better at 50 yards. The inescapable fact is that average group size at 50 more than doubles at 100 yards, yet the assertion is that 75% of the targets at 100 had MOA or better results. How can that be?

Finally, was the "dud" in the bottom row's middle target not counted? If not, why? Fliers and "duds" are to be expected from bulk ammo and fliers and duds do count, all the time. (There are no mulligans.) That's one reason why bulk doesn't shoot MOA with consistency.

Nevertheless, when all is said and done, I tip my hat to you for achieving very good results with relatively inexpensive high velocity ammo, although it must be noted that there isn't very much expensive match quality HV ammo available to begin with.

Is it bulk - it only comes in big packs and is relatively cheap, used to be in the loose 375's It is for semi autos and they like high volume plinking. It's HV and don't say target or match anywhere on it. I paid 26/300 and that's bulk price in a bulk box, so I would think so. If not what is it, what are the ammo classifications.
50yd average - that was a different day and different ammo, I just didn't want to waste my targets. I was probably having a few and shooting quicker, it's not a comparison between 50/100.
The dud - I've shoot probably 1000 of these and that's the only one went "pop" instead of bang, pretty sure it missed some powder and was subsonic. It's not a flyer it's a dud round so I didn't count it in average.
 
Fact is you can't submit a target shot at 50 yds that's under moa and claim it to be under moa @100.I would love to see a 5X5 shot group's at 100 .YOU cannot just double the group sizes at 50 on rimfires it's probably closer to 3x.Wind and muzzle velocity change the outcome dramaticly from 50 to 100.

Is this directed for me or just a general statement?
 
CCI is known for producing ammunition of a higher quality than your typical "bulk". From their website "Excellent accuracy in AR-style .22 LR firearms (1.5 inches at 100 yards in factory testing)" http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0956

If it can achieve 1.5" @ 100 accuracy in a semi-auto AR platform rifle, some better than 1" groups out of a decent bolt action are not surprising.

And some information from a review: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2015/9/3/tactical-22-lr-loads/

"Holm went on to explain what makes the AR Tactical different from other CCI offerings: “CCI AR Tactical 22 Long Rifle ammunition uses a ‘target-grade’ bullet"
"CCI has traditionally been known for higher-end .22 LR ammunition"
"In the past, there were generally two types of .22 LR ammunition available: inexpensive bulk ammo best suited for plinking or light training, and “boutique” ammo, made to more exacting specifications—but priced accordingly."

"Now there’s a third category of ammunition emerging on the market"

etc... basically nobody is going to consider anything made by CCI to be "bulk" grade.

"Dud" counts, whether you like it or not, 5/8 under MOA moving further and further from that 90%.... now that was with decent ammo, what's going to happen when you dip into a Bucket'O'bullets?
 
http://rs710.pbsrc.com/albums/ww101/easyrider604/IMG_0901_zpsztixiphf.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip
Back in 2009, one calm morning, my Style did 1 inch, 5 shot groups at 100 meters, benched and sandbagged, Winchester bulk Dynapoints, standard velocity, 1060 fps iirc. FWIW, my Savage Mk2F shot similar groups. I don't have pictures to show. I'd say 3 out of 5 groups were that good. I could actually see the bullets fly towards the point of aim. So much fun.

Might have been a fluke batch of Dynapoints. I haven't shot 100 metres in years as my indoor club now has only 17 yds max range.

Needless to say, my Style and Mk2F are not going anywhere for a long time.
 
Last edited:
http://rs710.pbsrc.com/albums/ww101/easyrider604/IMG_0901_zpsztixiphf.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip
Back in 2009, one calm morning, my Style did 1 inch, 5 shot groups at 100 meters, benched and sandbagged, Winchester bulk Dynapoints, standard velocity, 1060 fps iirc. FWIW, my Savage Mk2F shot similar groups. I don't have pictures to show. I'd say 3 out of 5 groups were that good. I could actually see the bullets fly towards the point of aim. So much fun.

Might have been a fluke batch of Dynapoints. I haven't shot 100 metres in years as my indoor club now has only 17 yds max range.

Needless to say, my Style and Mk2F are not going anywhere for a long time.

Yours is a nice rifle. The Style is one of the few rifles that I like in a synthetic stock.

If it is worth anything, Winchester Dynapoint is not standard velocity ammunition, and it never has been. Although Dynapoint doesn't have the MV printed on the box, it apparently is 1155 fps (see h t t p://nosa-newontarioshooters.org/r_22_rimfire_best_ammo.html ). When shooting at 100 yards, the challenge faced by anyone shooting HV ammo, that is .22LR ammo that is supersonic -- i.e. faster than the speed of sound -- is that the bullet cannot avoid encountering accuracy diminishing trans-sonic turbulence when it slows to subsonic speeds before getting to the target. It is not possible for typical HV .22LR ammo to retain supersonic speed all the way to 100 yards.

Is it bulk - it only comes in big packs and is relatively cheap, used to be in the loose 375's It is for semi autos and they like high volume plinking. It's HV and don't say target or match anywhere on it. I paid 26/300 and that's bulk price in a bulk box, so I would think so. If not what is it, what are the ammo classifications.

No, CCI AR Tactical ammo is not bulk ammo. Below is CCI AR Tactical



These are typical "bulk" 22LR ammo





 
"Dud" counts, whether you like it or not, 5/8 under MOA moving further and further from that 90%.... now that was with decent ammo, what's going to happen when you dip into a Bucket'O'bullets?

I have fed AM22 ( maybe that's not bulk as it says match?)maybe I'll try that someday. No win or rem rimfire around here. I'd imagine you guys will be out searching for some ar Tac to give a try, lol. To see for yourselves as seems to be a tough crowd around here.
I challenge anyone that replied to any of my posts on this thread to try and duplicate my results with any ammo under .09c/round - then will talk.
These were shot with a stock rifle, a 200 buck scope, with a tailgate and a lawn chair for a bench, main thing is to have fun.

Grauhanen - i can google and post pics of bulk ammo as well ( google cci ar tac bulk and the 375 loose round shows up)depends what you think are bulk. Is it price or the way it's packaged or what it says on the box? Is Fed AM 22, win m22 and sk magazine bulk as well?
 
Last edited:
Hard to believe, yes...impossible...no.

About 2 years ago hometownhero advertised MOA accuracy at 50 with his CZ and Winchester 222/333/555. I could never come close to MOA with any "good" hi velocity ammo such as minimags, etc but I thought it was easy enough to try. Sure enough, 2 of my CZs (452 Full Stock and 452 Silhouette, both with barrel lugs BTW...) love this stuff and shoot this bulk MOA at 50yd, I would guess 80% of times (5 shot groups). Believe it or not....that's up to you to decide. You bet I was rushing back to my Canadian Tire to buy more.
Kody

Glad I could help. I have a few cases of the stuff in different boxes 222,235,333,555. That hollow point works very good on gophers.


Grauhanen - i can google and post pics of bulk ammo as well ( google cci ar tac bulk and the 375 loose round shows up)depends what you think are bulk. Is it price or the way it's packaged or what it says on the box? Is Fed AM 22, win m22 and sk magazine bulk as well?

I had a box of that ar stuff in the bulk box. Even the stuff in the 300 round boxes now I would say is bulk. The few boxes I bought were not even close to as good as the 100 round packs.
 
Grauhanen - i can google and post pics of bulk ammo as well ( google cci ar tac bulk and the 375 loose round shows up)depends what you think are bulk. Is it price or the way it's packaged or what it says on the box? Is Fed AM 22, win m22 and sk magazine bulk as well?

The examples of what is generally considered to be "bulk" .22LR ammo were posted because there seemed to be some confusion over what it was. It's reassuring that people can google bulk ammo (and post pictures, too); more troublesome, however, is the continued confusion as to what bulk ammo is. Optimistically, shooters with some experience ought to recognize the difference between bulk (cheap) ammo and that which is not without being deliberately stubborn or obtuse.

To put it simply, ammo makers may make really cheap stuff, often sold in bulk packages but sometimes in boxes of 50, which usually cost a little more. Remington Thunderbolts is an example. Cheap ammo may not be always the most reliable in cycling and firing. The ammo makers make better grades of ammo, which are ostensibly less prone to failure to cycle or fire. These cost more and may be sold in larger packages to help make them more affordable. What these ammos have in common is that they are invariably not standard velocity and they are not made for accuracy. Winchester makes a number of different ammos of both kinds, from cheap Wildcat, Dynapoint, 222, 333, and 555 to Super X and M22.

Ammunition such as SK Magazine is sold in bulk packaging because it is SK Standard Plus that didn't make the cut. The difference between Magazine and SK Standard Plus is that the former did not meet all the manufacturing specifications for the latter, just as SK Standard Plus is ammo that did not meet all the standards for SK Rifle Match. If you looked at one of each, it wouldn't be possible to tell the difference between them.

As an observation and afterthought, perhaps the confusion among some shooters about bulk ammo stems from the likelihood that they have never used match ammo or even entry level match ammo. Maybe it seems too expensive or, since it's often not found in the LGS, not worth the trouble to get. As a result, shooters use what's available and find something that shoots reasonably well. They stick to that ammo and for them it's good enough. The more expensive ammo made by the North American manufacturers is almost always more readily available than match and that's what many may buy when they want "the good stuff". Unfortunately, anyone who tries for the best accuracy and has never used match ammo has shortchanged himself. It is not possible to achieve the same level of accuracy with North American made HV .22LR ammo as with standard velocity match ammo, such as those made by SK/Lapua, RWS, and Eley.
 
While some ammo is produced as bulk, there is a market for SK Standard Plus in bricks so where does it go when there are 3XX short of a brick or 4### short of a case . . . BULK???
Eley has been known to insert a different brick lot into a case. Eley also markets EPS Practise and TEAM was the low end of their match ammo but might have worked just fine in your rifle. Having seen some of the prices on Killough's Eley Practise it would appear to me more expensive that TEAM. TEAM may have been discontinued as it does not appear on their website. Judging by the price of Remington's Eley Match EPS it tends to be more expensive than MATCH so I doubt it would be Eley's MATCH or TENEX.
 
Back on track to the OP don't worry about the barrel lug or over think it.I've had a 455 and a 452 varmint. The 455 had an edge in accuracy but was pillar beded. Both made the 50 yds challenge. If you find a decent deal on a 452 varmint buy it add the yodave spring kit,buy some SK std plus add a decent optic and you'll be grinning ear to ear with how good it shoots.
Cheers SC
 
Back
Top Bottom