Cz 858-2

Is there anyway we can get a printout or PDF of the FRT for the CZ858 Tactical 2 that is non-restricted status?

ghostie said:
Hello guys,

I'm a lawyer in Vancouver who is working on this issue along with the NFA, both on behalf of individual clients, and generally.

The CZ 858 Tactical 2, FRT# 123599-1, is listed as a non-restricted semi-automatic firearm. That is the 19" barrel model (483mm).

The 15.5" barrel model (394mm) continues to be listed as restricted (FRT#123599-3).

Thre are many other names and FRT# however.

Yes, the RCMP have seized some firearms and claimed that they are prohibited. What they have handed out is a copy of the printout for FRT# 142362-2, the "CZ 858 Tactical 2 P". The "2P" is listed as a "Full Automatic" firearm, saying in the notes "can be converted to a full automatic firearm in a relatively short period of time with relative ease."

The problem with all this is that the FRT description for the "Tactical 2" (the non-res) says " "CZ 858 TACTICAL - 2 P" or CZ 858 TACTICAL -2 V" is marked on the left side of the reciever/frame. "P" denotes a factory installed fixed buttstock, and "V" denotes a factory installed folding buttstock." The FRT notes for FRT# 142362-2 (the prohib) say something very similar (minus the stuff about the "V" folding stock).

So, what I am trying to determine right now is... which firearms are prohibited and which are not, and what - precisely - causes a firearm to fall within one FRT description or another. Clearly, being marked "2 P" or "2 V" is not determinative of anything.

I'm hopefully going to be able to work with the importers and other in the firearms industry to get to the bottom of this, because, yes, some people have had firearms seized and have been threatened with prosecution. I personally feel that there is no risk of that as, at this point, how would anybody know what they have or don't have? You have to knowingly possess a prohibited firearm in order to be guilty of anything. But that is not the point. The RCMP have created a hell of a mess here, and it is going to be left to the courts and/or the government to clean this up.
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ghostie said:
Hello guys,

I'm a lawyer in Vancouver who is working on this issue along with the NFA, both on behalf of individual clients, and generally.

The CZ 858 Tactical 2, FRT# 123599-1, is listed as a non-restricted semi-automatic firearm. That is the 19" barrel model (483mm).

The 15.5" barrel model (394mm) continues to be listed as restricted (FRT#123599-3).

Thre are many other names and FRT# however.

Yes, the RCMP have seized some firearms and claimed that they are prohibited. What they have handed out is a copy of the printout for FRT# 142362-2, the "CZ 858 Tactical 2 P". The "2P" is listed as a "Full Automatic" firearm, saying in the notes "can be converted to a full automatic firearm in a relatively short period of time with relative ease."

The problem with all this is that the FRT description for the "Tactical 2" (the non-res) says " "CZ 858 TACTICAL - 2 P" or CZ 858 TACTICAL -2 V" is marked on the left side of the reciever/frame. "P" denotes a factory installed fixed buttstock, and "V" denotes a factory installed folding buttstock." The FRT notes for FRT# 142362-2 (the prohib) say something very similar (minus the stuff about the "V" folding stock).

So, what I am trying to determine right now is... which firearms are prohibited and which are not, and what - precisely - causes a firearm to fall within one FRT description or another. Clearly, being marked "2 P" or "2 V" is not determinative of anything.

I'm hopefully going to be able to work with the importers and other in the firearms industry to get to the bottom of this, because, yes, some people have had firearms seized and have been threatened with prosecution. I personally feel that there is no risk of that as, at this point, how would anybody know what they have or don't have? You have to knowingly possess a prohibited firearm in order to be guilty of anything. But that is not the point. The RCMP have created a hell of a mess here, and it is going to be left to the courts and/or the government to clean this up.
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Perhaps this may give you some insight or at least something to look into. I believe that the riflee marked with a p or v were built on recycled receivers and were originally meant to be full auto military vz 58s, until they were turned into cz 858s, although I could be wrong
 
I'm working on it guys. I'll try to have some answers by next week. I just got retained on this file on Monday afternoon.

It may be as simple as... there are reams of firearms which fall under 123599-1, and therefore remain non-restricted as they always were, but certain RCMP members have confused the issue by introducing the idea of the 142362-2 firearms. Since there are no registration certificates anymore, it is something of a Brave New World when dealing which each CZ-858 a police officer comes across. I am going to take a wild guess and suggest that 142362-2 firearms are substantially more rare, and that the police don't have the information or training to differentiate the two - so they err on the side of caution. Based on the descrption in the FRT, there would need to be something in the physical characteristics of the firearm which allow it to be "converted to a full automatic firearm in a relatively short period of time with relative ease" to fall into the 142362-2 description. Generally that is going to be something pretty dramatic, like the presence of a full-auto sear. But, as I say, I'm working on it.

Ultimately, we are going to have to find out how the serial number of a particular firearm links it to one description or the other - or how the physical characteristics of a particular firearm link it to one description or another... because right now, looking at the two FRT printouts, I can certainly see how Joe Constable in the patrol car could confuse the two. For 123599-1 (the non-res) it mentions under the "Also known as" section "CZ 858 Tactical - 2 P", along with a whole slew of others.

Don't start to panic just yet. I think there is an answer to all this confusion.
 
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ghostie said:
I'm working on it guys. I'll try to have some answers by next week. I just got retained on this file on Monday afternoon.

Don't start to panic just yet. I think there is an answer to all this confusion.
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Awesome Ghostie! Thanks a lot for putting the time in on this issue.

I might have been a bit quick to throw the "Is anyone doing anything about this?" question out there. Upon thinking about it, at this point there's really not that much information to act upon. Just some questions to get to the bottom of.

I hope you can get some answers for us.
 
The only reason JT might get elected is because our current glorious leader ignores the Canadian voters. He's also created mandatory minimum sentences (which may be overturned) for owning (for example) a prohibited rifle like the CZ858.

NoTarget said:
Don't kid yourself, they're all going to be confiscated one day. JT's election will just be one more nail in the coffin.
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I'm looking at one available locally (the NR version) but am hesitant....I want to pounce on it and not sure if i'll have the chance if I wait until next week. Oh, what to do, what to do!!!
 
WAIT! But If you can afford to loose the $$$ then go for it.

Zircarg said:
I'm looking at one available locally (the NR version) but am hesitant....I want to pounce on it and not sure if i'll have the chance if I wait until next week. Oh, what to do, what to do!!!
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I thought there would be pics of pretty women on here lol I tried to justify owning a cz to a cop he couldn't wrap his brain around the concept that 7.62x39 will kill deer, moose, coyotes, and a lot of other things
 
cp220 said:
There are several FRT's listed for 858's.

The CZ 858 Tactical 2 is listed as non-restricted.

There are also FRT's for CZ 858's (Tactical 2P, Tactical 2V, Tactical 4P) that lists them as prohibited (converted auto). The notes indicate the firearm is a full auto VZ58 altered to fire semi only, and the original receiver markings were removed and replaced with CZ 858 Tactical 2 P (or Tactical 2V, or Tactical 4P).

I have no idea what will come of all this, but that's the info on the FRT currently.

The CSA rifles all look the same as NR.
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Bingo. I was not informed by the RCMP. We heard of these changes and my staff checked the FRT for the guns we had at the shop, listed for sale. Of the three in stock, 2 used and one new, 2 were made prohib. We are still working on sorting all this out, as Ghostie is. So stay tuned.

For reference, from the other thread:

cz858_zps9ef95d60.jpg


One thing to note is that new FRTs begin with 14, the old ones begin with 12
 
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shaddp said:
If they make something prohibited they take it, destroy it and they will never pay you a cent, they also will never let anyone else be approved to own a prohib. It is the unfortunate way things work here, completely unacceptable.
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send a letter out saying you have 30 days "or else" to hand over property without compensation..... YOU try it to someone else and see if it is legal or not, if you are committing a crime

send goons with guns to that persons door after 30 days to demand property held over with threat of lethal force, again, for free....YOU try it to someone else and see if it is legal or not, if you are committing a crime

person did not comply? Send in a dozen body armored goons with full autos and flash grenades, maybe some CS gas, if he resists KILL him, if not toss his ass to the ground, cuff him, toss him in a holding cell. Take his property, do not pay him for it.... YOU try it to someone else and see if it is legal or not, if you are committing a crime

person still alive after the above? destroy him via the judicial process, put him in prison for years, destroy his property, no compensation....YOU try it to someone else and see if it is legal or not, if you are committing a crime




or comply with them from the get go, their extortion, and you surrender your $1000 of property for no compensation.....YOU try it to someone else and see if it is legal or not, if you are committing a crime





When the law legalizes crimes for some and not for others I see great problems with "the system". Theft, extortion, etc, all illegal for the rest of us.
 
supahdave said:
We need to do our damnedest to get everyone and their dog into shooting sports and hunting. The problem is people don't even know you can own a gun in Canada, never mind ever shot one. Everyone I bring up to the range with me leaves with a huge smile and whole new perspective. It's those that haven't tried it and don't understand guns that fear them. The more of us around the better. More gun owners means more strength, if that happens the politicians will be bribing us with favorable gun laws instead of cutting them and making them more rediculous, I would hope anyway hah.
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I agree.

Funny thing, well not so funny, I read an "anti" article where they more or less categorize us in the same light as pedophiles and child molesters because we are "targeting children" for brainwashing about guns.......

I only read the one article like this out of the 1000s of articles I have read so I guess thats good........but man it blew my mind.

They (antis) go on and on about kids, target kids, 0 tollerance in schools, focus on kids........... so we try to counter that and we are evil SOBs
 
ghostie said:
Hello guys,

I'm a lawyer in Vancouver who is working on this issue along with the NFA, both on behalf of individual clients, and generally.

The CZ 858 Tactical 2, FRT# 123599-1, is listed as a non-restricted semi-automatic firearm. That is the 19" barrel model (483mm).

The 15.5" barrel model (394mm) continues to be listed as restricted (FRT#123599-3).

Thre are many other names and FRT# however.

Yes, the RCMP have seized some firearms and claimed that they are prohibited. What they have handed out is a copy of the printout for FRT# 142362-2, the "CZ 858 Tactical 2 P". The "2P" is listed as a "Full Automatic" firearm, saying in the notes "can be converted to a full automatic firearm in a relatively short period of time with relative ease."

The problem with all this is that the FRT description for the "Tactical 2" (the non-res) says " "CZ 858 TACTICAL - 2 P" or CZ 858 TACTICAL -2 V" is marked on the left side of the reciever/frame. "P" denotes a factory installed fixed buttstock, and "V" denotes a factory installed folding buttstock." The FRT notes for FRT# 142362-2 (the prohib) say something very similar (minus the stuff about the "V" folding stock).

So, what I am trying to determine right now is... which firearms are prohibited and which are not, and what - precisely - causes a firearm to fall within one FRT description or another. Clearly, being marked "2 P" or "2 V" is not determinative of anything.

I'm hopefully going to be able to work with the importers and other in the firearms industry to get to the bottom of this, because, yes, some people have had firearms seized and have been threatened with prosecution. I personally feel that there is no risk of that as, at this point, how would anybody know what they have or don't have? You have to knowingly possess a prohibited firearm in order to be guilty of anything. But that is not the point. The RCMP have created a hell of a mess here, and it is going to be left to the courts and/or the government to clean this up.
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Ghostie from youtube?

Asian dude with all the nice expen$ive guns at the range?

my word, THATS how you pay for all those toys!! :)

lawyer!

/highfive


PS: the restricted version is CZ858 4 v (folding stock).

if they are mixing up the folding stock VS wooden stock of one FRT numbered gun with a different gun of a different FRT number I'd hope it is a clear cut case.........

if they can get away with grouping the CZ858 -2 non restricted as a prohibited they can also take my CZ858 -4 and dot he same thing, because of a letter denoting its stock....... which they do not have the power to do.

the RCMP gun lab can not prohibit a firearm because a stock is folding or not (assuming total length of gun is within range for said firearms class..... NR / R). Im sure they have to say it is "easily convertible to full auto" or one of the other things they must do.

humm....parts form a full auto I think was one too.




/scratches head


good luck anyway :)
 
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Zircarg said:
I'm looking at one available locally (the NR version) but am hesitant....I want to pounce on it and not sure if i'll have the chance if I wait until next week. Oh, what to do, what to do!!!
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BUY BUY BUY .... One more , is always welcome ...7,473 CZ858s are privately owned across Canada, according to Global News’s copy of the firearms registry.
 
the one i sell to mike in canmore had a tactical 2V , i doubt any cz have only the "tactical 2" now they have prohibited every cz ... last time i shoot it, it was still shooting only in semi auto ... and have the welded block and no slot for the f/a parts , gun grabber at work
 
OK, the one I'm looking at falls into this category, so I think I may be ok:

Wikipedia:
CSA vz. 58 Sporter: Available in .222 Remington, .223 Remington (5.56 NATO), or 7.62×39mm, these carbines were newly manufactured by Czech Small Arms, and not Česká zbrojovka. They came in Compact (190mm barrel, folding stock), Carbine (300 or 310mm barrel, folding stock), and Rifle (390 or 410mm barrel, fixed sporter stock) models. In addition there was a "Tactical" model chambered in .223 Remington, featuring a 410mm barrel, railed handguard, and collapsible buttstock. All featured synthetic handguards, although the 7.62x39mm Rifle model is available with either a synthetic or phenolic wood handguard.
 
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