*** CZ 858 Update ***

[LenDen99]

Anyway I said what I wanted to say. Not responding to anymore. The site government has rules, law and regulations that are vague and can be used to certain needs of a few. I am afraid of the web site police and the arbitrary consequences that I may indure in speaking my mind because it may fall under trolling, being liberal, maybe a curse word somewhere, etc etc...

 

[LenDen99]

Don't worry keltec fan. I'm done. Said what I wanted to say. Call off the site police. No need to get the site police involved. "I have been warned before" - your right - I shall comply... peace and love thy neighbour

 

[BAAC]

I've been on this forum for a few years now and I don't often say too much. I find all the bickering and fighting amongst the gunnies to be exhausting. We are a very small percentage of the population in this country fighting against a large % that don't think we should even be allowed to own firearms and still we are constantly dividing ourselves. We need to learn to stick together no matter what. Even if it means supporting something you have no vested interest in or helping the people who ask the questions you deem to be stupid. Or sometimes just by keeping your mouth shut even if you disagree. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I believe there is a time and place and an open forum for all to see is not the place. Just for a second let's try to think of the greater good and not just our own personal agenda. I have no interest in a Cz 858 or any other firearm like it but I'll still support Wolverine for trying to bring new and interesting things to the Canadian market and for standing up for our hobby. Today it's the new shipment of 858's tomorrow who knows what they'll go after. United we have a chance to keep firearm ownership around in this country. We start giving an inch on any aspect whether it be handguns, black rifles, Eastern bloc rifles all the way down to hunting rifles and they're going to continue to take and take.

End of rant

+1

Gun ownership is gun ownership. We need to stop Balkanizing and start moving as a unit.

 

[Recce21]

I smell a Mountie

I smell a Fudd

 

[Sinbad]

Those were my thoughts at first. Not sure now. Ive never heard a cop apologize unless forced because of being caught outright for something.

I smell a Mountie

 

[Granddad]

* * * * * * *

We live in contentious times; this issue is dividing us and we need to see eye to eye and be constructive.


Here's what I see is the core of the problem here, and how we can all reach some common ground to move forward, and to get our concerns heard by others who would otherwise turn a deaf ear toward us:

Forget for a moment that we're talking about a shipment of Firearms. Here we have a business that is engaged in trade, or economic activity that benefits Canada, through the payment of salaries, rent, taxes, etc. ‎This business, this economic activity has now been thwarted due to government regulation and bureaucracy. If this regulation and bureaucracy has protected Canadians and made them safer, then it is good and worthwhile. If not, then this regulation and bureaucracy - in this instance at least - must be over-ruled, because to let it stand would be detrimental to the prosperity of the country.

If we approach this as an issue of trade and economic freedom that benefits the Canadian economy, then we might find that non-gun people might be more receptive to our argument.

* * * * * * *

 

[Granddad]

* * * * * * *

Whether this rifle can or cannot be converted to full auto is of minor significance to this argument.

There are already laws in Canada covering the ownership, manufacture, sale and use of full automatic firearms. For the most part, full autos are illegal for citizens to possess in Canada (I know, there are a small number of grandfathered individuals who can possess full autos in Canada, but that's a sidebar discussion).

The act of converting to full auto is illegal, and in the case of this rifle, is not easily or readily done even with a machine shop and the necessary skills. Why prohibit a thing if someone might remotely - through great effort and expense - convert it to something that is already illegal to possess? As I said, there's already laws prohibiting both converting to, and possessing, full autos. If you were to follow this logic, then the government must ban the import of automobiles into Canada that are capable of travelling over 140 kmh, as it is against the law anywhere in this country to do so. And there is probably similar potential for deadly consequences in both cases, converting to full auto illegally, and driving over 140 kmh illegally.

* * * * * * *

 

[SoleSpectre]

NO!! I F☆☆KING HATE THAT EXTRA 24 CENTS ON EVERY LITRE OF GAS AND THAT EXTRA 800 AT THE END OF THE MONTH SURE WOULD BE NICE!

The only censorship I feel threatened by at the moment is our Royal Canadian Mounted Police taking legally obtained possesions because they have an iconic phrase thats been linked to freedom and rebellion.

Not rebellion. Freedom no question ... and defiance in the face of tyranny. Not rebellion.

 

[Steiner]

* * * * * * *

Whether this rifle can or cannot be converted to full auto is of minor significance to this argument.

There are already laws in Canada covering the ownership, manufacture, sale and use of full automatic firearms. For the most part, full autos are illegal for citizens to possess in Canada (I know, there are a small number of grandfathered individuals who can possess full autos in Canada, but that's a sidebar discussion).

The act of converting to full auto is illegal, and in the case of this rifle, is not easily or readily done even with a machine shop and the necessary skills. Why prohibit a thing if someone might remotely - through great effort and expense - convert it to something that is already illegal to possess? As I said, there's already laws prohibiting both converting to, and possessing, full autos. If you were to follow this logic, then the government must ban the import of automobiles into Canada that are capable of travelling over 140 kmh, as it is against the law anywhere in this country to do so. And there is probably similar potential for deadly consequences in both cases, converting to full auto illegally, and driving over 140 kmh illegally.

* * * * * * *

Well said. If they apply the logic you stated, there are many things that they should ban/prohibit because of the potential threat to public safety.

 

[Firearmsking]

Bro... Mr.Wolverine is fighting for gun owners rights here... yeah he owns a business and sure it's a for profit business... by saying that the phrase on the Cz858 stock was something that provoked this outcome from the RCMP just really shows that in essence we don't really have freedom of speech here in Canada then? I would suggest we band together as gun owners in this fight against the RCMP and the liberals and hold them accountable... instead of hatin like this...

And i assure you at this rate, with no pushback from the firearms community, the CZ858s soon won't be legal... give them an inch and they will try to take it all away...

THIS ISN'T SO BAD!!!

The CZ858 is still legal and non-restricted in Canada. This batch is the only batch affected and so what!!! The CZ858 is still legal. Is it a shame that ONE business, that is exploiting this opportunity to profit (with probably a huge markup) from the gun community at ridicules prices just got shut down? I say big deal. Feeding to the arrogance of some gun owners by taunting the RCMP with "Molon Labe" engraved on the rifle was not too smart. All this does is just makes the gun community look bad. And i know with this post I may/will get criticized and attacked by the retailer and some retailer suck up’s on this site but I don’t care cause nobody likes brown nosers anyway or at least I don’t.!

Some Police are arrogant! and power trip! and some hypocrites that police this site are no different - if not worse! I will get arbitrarily punished by the site police for speaking my mind even though I am a Canadian gun owner. Respect works both ways no matter who you are or what “side” you’re on.

 

[SavageTRB]

Hey LenDen99. If you think this rifle is over priced and isn't worth what people are willing to pay for it, PM me and give an honest price for the guns you're willing to sell.... If you think this gun isn't worth that much, it must mean that you have a few guns I'd be willing to buy. No probably not... You're probably one of those guys on the EE selling a single shot Cooey for 200$ lol

 

[Matt762]

The Conservative party has sent this to everyone on their email list:

Liberals coming after your guns - again
Dear (NAME),

Here we go again.

Under the Trudeau Liberals, the RCMP has been tasked with finding new ways harass law-abiding firearms owners.

The solution – to prohibit the CZ 858 Spartan Rifle as “converted automatic”.

What was the rationale behind this decision? The addition of new markings on the receiver, stock, handguards and pistol grip.

Seeing as this “Special Edition” rifle was not named as an exempted model of the CZ 858 rifle it has been decreed as prohibited.

So what exactly are these markings that have sent fear throughout the Liberal lead bureaucracy?

The words “Molon Labe” under the Spartan helmet and a graphic of the most Canadian symbol of all, our mighty Maple Leaf.

I’m proud of the hard work our Conservative government did in scrapping the long-gun registry, and treating law-abiding firearms owners with respect. Unfortunately, that hard work is slowly being undone by an out-of-touch Liberal government!

(NAME), help us fight the Liberals and win in 2019 with a donation. Your donations help us hold the Liberals and the bureaucrats to account.

Sincerely,

Candice Bergen

I know who I am voting for next election

 

[VanIsleCam]

Yeah but I believe the FRT notice says "not convertible to automatic fire" - it is the cosmetic changes that "supports" the lab's decision to require a new submission/FRT certification. Sad Christmas as if there is no way to challenge the decision absent intervention by the minister and I have found no recourse in the legislation/regulations yet.

 

[Sinbad]

If your talking about Candice Bergen. I got that also but I think she's just a solicitor for the party unless she just signed up, as far as I know at this point the candidates were
Chris Alexander
Maxime Bernier
Steven Blaney
Michael Chong
Kellie Leitch
Pierre Lemieux
Deepak Obhrai
Erin O’Toole
Rick Peterson
Lisa Raitt
Andrew Saxton
Andrew Scheer
Brad Trost
And hopefully that dildo O'leary the red tory concentrates on his TV show and stay out of politics. He would be no help at all with this issue

 

[VanIsleCam]

Yes but a solicitor is a lawyer in Canada. If that's the case she needs to read a bit more.

 

[renrab]

John,

Thanks for holding strong, I will leave my order in place in good faith that we as a community will see a resolution in our favor...

Letter to MPs:

"Elected member of parliament I hope this letter reaches you well,

As of January 9th 2017 the RCMP has released an FRT#172184 declaring a new batch of “CZ 858 Tactical -2P” semi-automatic rifles to be deemed prohibited. The RCMP has ruled that these rifles in question are a new “Spartan” version and as such require a new FRT ruling. These rifles are the exact same internals as the 10,000+ CZ 858 rifles that have been sold as non-restricted and restricted over the last many years. The only difference being an engraving on the bolt carrier as well as custom wood stocks with an engraved Canadian maple leaf.

These rifles have quite a history and were classified prohibited once in the past. Approximately a year after the prohibited classification our Canadian government re-confirmed them as non restricted (or restricted if short barrel), retailers have since resumed selling these rifles up until this point without incident.

As written by Steven Blaney (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness) to Commissioner Bob Paulson on July 30th 2015…

The RCMP has already cost the Canadian tax payers enough money on unnecessary classification of a firearm that should already have an approved FRT. The ability for the RCMP to re-classify a firearm based on an engraving is absolutely absurd and I call upon you to help with this…

Matt McLean
Law Abiding, Tax Paying, Firearm Owner"

 

[FullBlownFarmer]

I've been on this forum for a few years now and I don't often say too much. I find all the bickering and fighting amongst the gunnies to be exhausting. We are a very small percentage of the population in this country fighting against a large % that don't think we should even be allowed to own firearms and still we are constantly dividing ourselves. We need to learn to stick together no matter what. Even if it means supporting something you have no vested interest in or helping the people who ask the questions you deem to be stupid. Or sometimes just by keeping your mouth shut even if you disagree. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I believe there is a time and place and an open forum for all to see is not the place. Just for a second let's try to think of the greater good and not just our own personal agenda. I have no interest in a Cz 858 or any other firearm like it but I'll still support Wolverine for trying to bring new and interesting things to the Canadian market and for standing up for our hobby. Today it's the new shipment of 858's tomorrow who knows what they'll go after. United we have a chance to keep firearm ownership around in this country. We start giving an inch on any aspect whether it be handguns, black rifles, Eastern bloc rifles all the way down to hunting rifles and they're going to continue to take and take.

End of rant

Well Said!

 

[icelink]

Just imagine the size of the lawsuit this would be if we were in the USA the "pain and suffering" and "mental anguish" settlement would far exceed the cost of the entire import

 

[Rescue85]

I usually post only in the rarest of circumstances but I have a thought (which my wife claims is a dangerous phenomenon ).

If John were to publicly sell one rifle, for the publicly expressed purpose of establishing a test case, would that new insurance program cover John and the test case owner. If it turned out badly in the long run, the limited release, and the fact that it was done solely to establish a test case, should weigh heavily in mitigation. If, on the other hand, it turned out well then we would win. I apologize in advance to those who might see this as naïve, but I wish to pivot the ongoing conversation from bitter rancour to constructive brainstorming and action. Perhaps there are even better ideas out there. We need to get organized on this issue.

 

[hsnerd]

I usually post only in the rarest of circumstances but I have a thought (which my wife claims is a dangerous phenomenon ).

If John were to publicly sell one rifle, for the publicly expressed purpose of establishing a test case, would that new insurance program cover John and the test case owner. If it turned out badly in the long run, the limited release, and the fact that it was done solely to establish a test case, should weigh heavily in mitigation. If, on the other hand, it turned out well then we would win. I apologize in advance to those who might see this as naïve, but I wish to pivot the ongoing conversation from bitter rancour to constructive brainstorming and action. Perhaps there are even better ideas out there. We need to get organized on this issue.

I personally like the idea! Though it has merit, John would be shouldering a fair amount of legal risk. If he were to do so though, I would contribute to his defence fund.

Can't express how betrayed I feel that our parliamentarians have surrendered law-making to the police, violating very old core principles of separation of executive, judiciary, and legislative powers... We have a burgeoning police state in Canada!

Every Canadian should read this book; it's a real eye-opener, in case you have fully bought into the government propaganda on our beloved Mounties:

https://www.amazon.ca/Unauthorized-History-RCMP-Lorne-Brown/dp/0888621930

... lest I be accused of being unpatriotic: I served nearly 9 years in the CF only to be discarded when my body broke. I also worked full-time for the federal government for four years, and ended up resigning (I can't reveal publicly all I've seen, but if Canadians knew what I've seen, there'd be people hanging in Parliament tomorrow morning!).

I love this land, and would be willing to give my life to defend it from invasion by any force unwilling to support our basic rights as enshrined in our long-standing legal traditions.

But I just can't condone the enforcers making up the rules as they go. This must stop!

http://www.arighttoarms.com/, excellent Canadian documentary by John Robson. Worth watching!