CZ Shadow first shot? Or H&K P30L V1 LEM?

CristianM

CristianM

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Hey guys,

I have just recently started to enjoy the holster stuff. Lots of fun!

Please, could you clarify this regarding the CZ Shadow (which has no decocker)? In IPSC / IDPA, for the first shot, right after pulling it out of the holster, is this gun shooting in SA?

I would think "yes" because when you load it, you rack the slide and it gets into SA mode, therefore you would holster it in SA with the safety on (kind of like a 1911).

Then, when do you fire this gun in DA? Only when you have a missfire? Unless any IPSC / IDPA rule obliges you to lower the hammer after racking the it and before holstering it; which is not at all safe, because having no decocker you'd have to carefully pull the trigger a bit and manually use a finger to lower the hammer.

The same questions would apply for the H&K P30L V1 LEM (I think the V1 version has no decocker either).

I am thinking about getting one of these two guns.

Thanks!
 
CristianM said:
Unless any IPSC / IDPA rule obliges you to lower the hammer after racking the it and before holstering it
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that is only true for production division, also called Shadow division

CristianM said:
which is not at all safe, because having no decocker you'd have to carefully pull the trigger a bit and manually use a finger to lower the hammer
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it is safe, people around the world have been doing so for years
These guys (from this forum) show a pretty safe method
[youtube]YpcHRoL35Po[/youtube]


If you are worried about accidental discharge you could always get the sp-01 tactical, which is basicly a shadow with a decocker instead of a safety
 
So. there is no division for Shadows where they can be holstered in SA just with the safety on?
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Sure there is. It's called "Standard Division". Unfortunately however you'll be at a serious disadvantage unless you shoot all A's because you'll be scored at minor power factor. I suggest reading through the rule book just to familiarize yourself with the IPSC sporting basics.

Don't let manual decocking scare you. It used to scare my wife too, but not for long. With dry practice she was later doing it without even having to think under the pressure of a match. At she's under 5 feet tall and about 90 pounds. And yes, she owns a Shadow too.

Practice at home doing it with the thumb and index finger letting the hammer down gently while you have the trigger pulled. Then practice firing from the DA position. Firing from the DA position should scare you more than simply decocking your gun.
 
I only know about IPSC, but you can play in any division you want, as long as you satisfy the rules mentionned in the appendices (http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf pages 51 to 55).

As such, you will be able to shoot in standard division with the hammer cocked and safety on, but will be scored minor (meaning hits not in the highest scoring portion of the target are worth less than they would score if you were shooting a major power factor) because you do not comply with the minimum bullet diameter for major power factor (0.40).
 
chemo said:
I only know about IPSC, but you can play in any division you want, as long as you satisfy the rules mentionned in the appendices (http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf pages 51 to 55).

As such, you will be able to shoot in standard division with the hammer cocked and safety on, but will be scored minor (meaning hits not in the highest scoring portion of the target are worth less than they would score if you were shooting a major power factor) because you do not comply with the minimum bullet diameter for major power factor (0.40).
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Not quite right. You score minor because of power factor not bullet diameter. However you cannot make major in standard division with a 9 mm must be 40 with the exception of 357Sig.
 
I'm not bothered by manually lowering the hammer. I just want a gun which I could shoot with constant trigger pull weight, meaning no higher pull weight in DA for the first shot.

I know, Glocks, S&W M&P, Walther PPQ, other strikers can offer this, but I was wondering if the Shadow or the H&K P30L V1 would allow me to start in SA.
 
CristianM said:
I was wondering if the Shadow or the H&K P30L V1 would allow me to start in SA.
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Yes, but not in IPSC Production.

You will have to shoot Standard or Open. And you will do so at a disadvantage. Production division mandates a DA start for the pistols you mention. "Safe Action" or striker fired guns are not considered DA/SA - the trigger pull weight on these guns must be 5# (i.e. for every shot).

If you want to shoot SA, you should consider going to a 1911 platform and shoot Classic.
 
If you want to shoot in Production for IPSC then you simply need to practice with the first DA shot. It's really not THAT big a deal.

Changing out the mainspring to a 13 lb reduced spring helps a lot to lower the DA pull down to somewhere around 6 lbs. So it's still above the 5 lb minimum for the first trigger pull.

From that point on simply practice with lowering the hammer and then go to a low ready, lift the gun and take the fist DA shot and a second SA shot to become familiar with the feel and to learn to shoot that way accuratley. In no time at all you'll be wondering what you were worried about.
 
I've heard that technically, the LEM trigger isn't exactly SA, but it's not DA, kind of somewhere in between. Pre-loads one of the springs, I'm not sure how that doesn't make it SA though.

I really dig my HK45 with LEM, but I don't think I'm good enough to shoot Standard since I don't get all A's.
 
Walter Hornby said:
Not quite right. You score minor because of power factor not bullet diameter. However you cannot make major in standard division with a 9 mm must be 40 with the exception of 357Sig.
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I don't want to sound off like an ass, but it is a bullet diameter restriction as per appendix D2
5. Minimum bullet caliber for Major 10mm (0.40”) see below
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as you said yourself, 357sig is the only listed exception, and 9x19 can be made to shoot major PF, but would still be minor since it is 9mm :)
 
Thanks guys. Good info.

I already have a DA / SA gun in .40 and two 1911s in .45. I want a constant pull 9 mm to use for both IPSC and IDPA (where you don't do manual hammer lowering) to be able to explore and compare various types of handguns.
 
CristianM said:
Thanks guys. Good info.

I already have a DA / SA gun in .40 and two 1911s in .45. I want a constant pull 9 mm to use for both IPSC and IDPA (where you don't do manual hammer lowering) to be able to explore and compare various types of handguns.
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Get a 1911 in 9mm...

Shoot it in IDPA ESP and IPSC Classic. STI Spartan is a good starter or a Trojan if you want to spend a bit more.
 
The guy that told you that is out to lunch. If manual decocking was not allowed in IDPA at the line then it would instantly ban any hammer fired gun from SSP that did not have a de-cocker. And that is a LOT of guns.

It's entirely up to you which way to go. But if you've tried striker fired guns in the past vs hammer fired and found that you prefer hammer fired then why do you want to force yourself to go with the other style now?

I say again that it's simply not that hard to become used to the DA first pull with some practice. I often will set up a target and shoot from a low ready or from a draw to get my DA first shot practice. And when I use my DA/SA guns in my clubs local style Speed Steel I'll de-#### for the first shot of each pass again to get in a little more practice.

It didn't take long at all before the DA first shot was not an issue at all and I was able to get Alphas, -0's or steel hits with 70% or more of my DA first shots.
 
All this talk of DA/SA is hurting my brain. Press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights. Easy, doesn't matter what kind of a trigger you have. Easy. Heavy DA? Press straight back, don't move the sights. light SA? Same thing. It's not that hard to do. But that means you have to actually get out and practice.
 
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