CZ Trail vs Sig Cross vs Gunsight Scout vs … ?

I was leaning towards the Cross but this pretty settles it.

The next question: .308 vs 6.5?

I was thinking .308 to save myself some length but then I wonder if 6.5 would be that much more accurate. I reload for both .308 and 6.5. I’d argue that .308 is easier to come by. .308 out of a 16” would also be slow but would still hit hard but the ballistics probably aren’t as good as the 6.5 in the 18”. Is the difference marginal? If I’m going for knock-down power on deer / black bear / moose, at say max 300m would one caliber be a clear winner over the other?
 
You should also check out the Franchi All Terrain Elite in .308. 18” barrel with a removable brake, takes 10 round PMags, has a pic rail and iron sights as standard. The sights are a cool design that when folded down are like pistol sights for close range or you can flip them up to a fully adjustable front post and rear aperture. For the win it is a sub MOA. Also has MLok slots and QD fittings for a sling. Great multi purpose rifle.
 
Tikka223 said:
I was leaning towards the Cross but this pretty settles it.

The next question: .308 vs 6.5?

I was thinking .308 to save myself some length but then I wonder if 6.5 would be that much more accurate. I reload for both .308 and 6.5. I’d argue that .308 is easier to come by. .308 out of a 16” would also be slow but would still hit hard but the ballistics probably aren’t as good as the 6.5 in the 18”. Is the difference marginal? If I’m going for knock-down power on deer / black bear / moose, at say max 300m would one caliber be a clear winner over the other?
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It's all come down how far you plan to hit your target. 308 win is great up to 500 meters and any further, it's dropping too much compare to 6.5. It shots more flat than 308 and could reach up to 800 meters easily but you will need like 20 or 22 inch barrel for 6.5. For the animals, they won't be able to tell the different what hit them but for hunting, I would keep around 200 to 250 meters to be a sure hit.

Honestly, it all comes down to how you inventory your ammunitions and guns. I chose 308 because I have plenty of that caliber around, no need to reload for me. I need to reload more if I want to shot 6.5 very often.
 
KND said:
It's all come down how far you plan to hit your target. 308 win is great up to 500 meters and any further, it's dropping too much compare to 6.5. It shots more flat than 308 and could reach up to 800 meters easily but you will need like 20 or 22 inch barrel for 6.5. For the animals, they won't be able to tell the different what hit them but for hunting, I would keep around 200 to 250 meters to be a sure hit.

Honestly, it all comes down to how you inventory your ammunitions and guns. I chose 308 because I have plenty of that caliber around, no need to reload for me. I need to reload more if I want to shot 6.5 very often.
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I hit at 800m with my 18" Barrelled SIG Cross in 6.5 CM no problem. Would velocity benefit from a longer Barrel? Of course, but the SIG engineers knew what they were doing when they gave it an 18" tube as a compromise between handiness and velocity.

IF it is true that the animals don't know the difference between being hit with a 6.5 CM rather than a .308 projectile, then it stands to reason that you ought to get the 6.5 CM with its longer, flatter trajectory. It won't change anything for your 300m (maximum) hunting shots, but will give you the ability to shoot precision long range during the off season. The .308 out of a 16" tube doesn't do long distance shots nearly so well.
 
Bartok5 said:
I hit at 800m with my 18" Barrelled SIG Cross in 6.5 CM no problem. Would velocity benefit from a longer Barrel? Of course, but the SIG engineers knew what they were doing when they gave it an 18" tube as a compromise between handiness and velocity.

IF it is true that the animals don't know the difference between being hit with a 6.5 CM rather than a .308 projectile, then it stands to reason that you ought to get the 6.5 CM with its longer, flatter trajectory. It won't change anything for your 300m (maximum) hunting shots, but will give you the ability to shoot precision long range during the off season. The .308 out of a 16" tube doesn't do long distance shots nearly so well.
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That 18" barrel would pair nicely with a suppressor as well. ;)
 
Tikka223 said:
That Franchi looks interesting. I’d never come across that before.
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My only concerns with the Franchi are parts availability and warranty service if needed. SIG on the other hand, is a big manufacturer with associated spares and customer service. I'd go with SIG again...
 
I’m going to fiddle with the ballistic calculator to see if I can make up my mind between .308 and 6.5. Two inch difference in length doesn’t seem like a lot but it might be the difference between feeling short and handy and just another rifle. My Stag is 18.5” and compared to my AR with a 16” barrel it feels long.
 
The only rifle in the rack shorter than my 18" SIG Cross in 6.5 CM is the CZ 600 Trail in .300 Blk. I cannot speak to the 16" .308 as I have never held one, let alone fired it. What I can tell you is that my 18" Cross is exceptionally well-balanced and feels quite compact in my hands. YMMV, of course. I honestly don't think that there is a bad choice between the two Cross options. Both the 6.5 CM and the .308 are winners.
 
I owned a CZ600 for a box of reloads, just the Lux though, not the Trail.
Found the whole design pretty lame, just lots of weak points and poorly thought out.
I think it's still sitting on consignment at local Smith for the last 6 months at half retail lol.
I checked in 2 months ago and it wasn't sold, dropped it another $100 and afraid to check lol
 
Bartok5 said:
My only concerns with the Franchi are parts availability and warranty service if needed. SIG on the other hand, is a big manufacturer with associated spares and customer service. I'd go with SIG again...
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Hopefully not an issue. Franchi is owned by Benelli USA and gun has a 7 year warranty.
 
KND said:
I can do half moa at the first 10 rounds, it opens up a bit once the barrel is getting hot, can't really blame it since it's not a bull barrel.

Go for Sig cross and you won't be disappointed.
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Yeah, that's my main concern with my Cross is not overheating the barrel (mostly for barrel life and longevity, as well as accuracy).
I'm trying to keep my groups to 5 or less, with a slow ROF and then let it cool down before shooting again, due to 6.5 being relatively hard on barrels and if you overheat the barrel often, it will shorten the life faster (fire cracking etc). It's not a huge concern by any means but something I do think about and so I try to not rapid fire with bolt guns so they maintain accuracy.
The Cross is a very cool, very well rounded rifle in my opinion though and I think it's a great choice.
 
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Tikka223 said:
I was leaning towards the Cross but this pretty settles it.

The next question: .308 vs 6.5?

I was thinking .308 to save myself some length but then I wonder if 6.5 would be that much more accurate. I reload for both .308 and 6.5. I’d argue that .308 is easier to come by. .308 out of a 16” would also be slow but would still hit hard but the ballistics probably aren’t as good as the 6.5 in the 18”. Is the difference marginal? If I’m going for knock-down power on deer / black bear / moose, at say max 300m would one caliber be a clear winner over the other?
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6.5 outperforms .308 beyond 500 at pretty much every level.
.308 is a great reliable and time proven round with no slouch in accuracy or range. But 6.5 was specifically designed to be better and for the most part, in my experience it is. It's flat trajectory is very good at distance.
However, don't feel .308 is worthless just because 6.5 was developed. Neither is a "bad" choice, more so it is preference and task specific than anything but 6.5 does have better terminal ballistics I believe. If you want to squeeze every bit of performance, I'd go 6.5 but .308 will still do what you need
 
Tikka223 said:
What are your thoughts?

I’m considering a handy rifle that’s easy to carry, can take a box mag, can be had in a heavier caliber, and that comes in a short(er) package that can be used for all-round hunting, plinking, and the odd precision shot (read 1MOA capable with 5 shot groups).

Basically what my Stag was suppose to be, only lighter and shorter and obviously not semi-auto.

I’d likely be toping it with a variable scope, something like a 1-8 or a 3-12.
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Not sure what your definition of 'plinking' is, but to me, it is something I can take to the range or out in the back 40 and shoot for half a day (100 - 250 rounds of center-fire) and not have my shoulder not feel beat up by the end of it. I don't think the average person is doing that with a 308 or another larger caliber with a lightweight set up.
Hunting - what exactly and how far? You want something for moose at 300m or will something that can handle whitetail at 80 - 100m do?
odd precision shot - holding ~ moa at 100m is pretty easy with most all rifles out there if you are talking 3 rounds from a prepared position, but less so if you are talking 10 rounds at 500m - this is an apples to bananas comparison.

It would appear to me from your first post that an intermediate cartridge would work for you - something in the ~ 6.5 Grendel, 6 ACR range - maybe a Howa mini action, CZ600 or a Renegade.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/howa-mini-action-6-5-grendel-stainless.2490225/

https://store.prophetriver.com/ruge...fluted-barrel-picatinny-scope-base-mfg-46910/
 
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Zulu10 said:
You should also check out the Franchi All Terrain Elite in .308. 18” barrel with a removable brake, takes 10 round PMags, has a pic rail and iron sights as standard. The sights are a cool design that when folded down are like pistol sights for close range or you can flip them up to a fully adjustable front post and rear aperture. For the win it is a sub MOA. Also has MLok slots and QD fittings for a sling. Great multi purpose rifle.
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Cool rifle. I didn’t know about this one, thx!
 
Only major complaint I’ve read about the Cross is that snow/water can get into to action too easily and even freeze up the trigger assembly. Anyone here had that problem?
 
Buschee said:
Only major complaint I’ve read about the Cross is that snow/water can get into to action too easily and even freeze up the trigger assembly. Anyone here had that problem?
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While I don't have a sig cross, I run a defiant action in a chassis, and it is similar open to the elements so to speak. Never had a problem with it in 5 years.

SilentKnight said:
Yeah, that's my main concern with my Cross is not overheating the barrel (mostly for barrel life and longevity, as well as accuracy).
I'm trying to keep my groups to 5 or less, with a slow ROF and then let it cool down before shooting again, due to 6.5 being relatively hard on barrels and if you overheat the barrel often, it will shorten the life faster (fire cracking etc). It's not a huge concern by any means but something I do think about and so I try to not rapid fire with bolt guns so they maintain accuracy.
The Cross is a very cool, very well rounded rifle in my opinion though and I think it's a great choice.
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I don't really fall for that too much with the overheating and faster shorter barrel life. Have a look at what MDT did with their quick 1000 rounds.

I use a 6.5 CM for a bench range rifle I recreational shoot with. I usually run 50 round strings when I go to the range with it. Shoot 10, reload mag, shoot 10, reload, for 50 rounds. I'm in at close to 2500 rounds now with it and its still printing great groups. Yes, it has started to open up a bit, but still well into what I am okay with. Should be able to get another 1000 or so through that barrel. This plus I push 139 gr tips right near, and sometimes over 2900 fps through the 26" barrel.

Me, I would go the 6.5 over the 308, just because of the ballistics of it. Sig seems to be the only budget option out there for your needs. Gonna be the same reloading price, and same small rifle primer brass availability. My next 6.5CM I put together I'm planning either 16" or 17" barrel for it and don't think it will be limited at all.
 
wallz said:
I don't really fall for that too much with the overheating and faster shorter barrel life. Have a look at what MDT did with their quick 1000 rounds.


I use a 6.5 CM for a bench range rifle I recreational shoot with. I usually run 50 round strings when I go to the range with it. Shoot 10, reload mag, shoot 10, reload, for 50 rounds. I'm in at close to 2500 rounds now with it and its still printing great groups. Yes, it has started to open up a bit, but still well into what I am okay with. Should be able to get another 1000 or so through that barrel. This plus I push 139 gr tips right near, and sometimes over 2900 fps through the 26" barrel.

Me, I would go the 6.5 over the 308, just because of the ballistics of it. Sig seems to be the only budget option out there for your needs. Gonna be the same reloading price, and same small rifle primer brass availability. My next 6.5CM I put together I'm planning either 16" or 17" barrel for it and don't think it will be limited at all.
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Yeah, fair points you make. I think it does depend on the profile and barrel itself a little but I do agree. I expect about 3k rounds for it to start to noticeably open up, give or take. And the cost of that much 6.5, coupled with the amount of time I have per year to shoot long range, it will take me years to near that threshold. I'm not worried about it or anything, just heard it enough that it is something I ponder at times.

I also agree with your conclusion of going with the 6.5 for the OP as well. I purposely chose the 6.5 over .308 for my Cross. I don't have any trigger time behind 6.5 yet, so it is still a relatively new cartridge to me but I do have time behind .308 from a PGW 24" R700 action rifle, among other systems.
The Cross is filling a dual role as my 2025 hunting rifle setup and a casual long range rifle in the off season, until I can build two separate dedicated setups for each task.
I am looking forward to getting to know 6.5 and get it out in the wild pretty soon here.
 
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