Da 52 ?

Beater

Beater

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posting this pic for a freind. unknown to me, this is a pic of a 7.62x51 round. i didnt know they were this early. very interesting to see the C /I\ mark . can anyone shed any light on this? i posted it hear instead of the ammo section, as i thought it would interest the milsurp guys more.

DA52.jpg
 
The 52 date is VERY early.

This is Trials ammo.

Can we get a picture of the whole casing? They did mod the T-65 case a bit at one point (higher extactor groove) and this could be a variant.

Are there any specimens available for sale?
.
 
Beater said:
posting this pic for a freind. unknown to me, this is a pic of a 7.62x51 round. i didnt know they were this early. very interesting to see the C /I\ mark . can anyone shed any light on this? i posted it hear instead of the ammo section, as i thought it would interest the milsurp guys more.

DA52.jpg
Click to expand...

That will almost certainly be a .284" bullet if it's actually measured; "7mm High Velocity" or "7mm Second Optimum"

The chamber drawing for 7.62x51 "NATO" was accepted in @Dec 1953.

If it is a .30 bullet, the case is not 7.62x51mm, it is some variation on the "T65" case. Either a "long neck" .300 Savage, or close to a straight .300 Savage... ~ I haven't seen a DAC case, but have a couple Dominion headstamped .300 Sav cases in my "Pre-NATO" collection.

I have variations to 1947 (1946??) in my "pre-NATO" collection.
 
CanAm said:
Very nice. That is very early ammo, since we did not formally adopt the FN until 54.
Click to expand...

Canada ordered the first production FAL rifles in June/July of 1953. Chamber drawing was finalized in Dec 1953 and FN was in full manufacture by Jan 54.

The Brits and Americans ordered their trials guns in Dec 1953.

All production FALs before the German G1 redesign were based on the Canadian ordered guns. That was the reason that FN called the first production FALs the "FAL Canada".
 
Venezuela did order 5000 riles in 7mm Second Optimum, aka 7mm HV. The rifles were rebarreled a number of years ago by CAVIM and now are 7.62x51.

I REALLY want one of those takeoff barrels!

It would be rather good if we could see a photo this cartridge from the side, preferably with a grid screen behind it or with a known 7.62 NATO round beside it.

Canada did make small lots of ammo for most of the Trials rifles, including the Canadian-built EM rifles. Note that this round has no NATO cross-in-circle headstamp; it is not a standardised cartridge. It could be anything from a .280 EM-2 to a .280/.30 to a 7mm2op to..... possible 7.62?????

I only KNOW two things:
1. I want one, and
2. we NEED a side-view photo with something to measure it by.
.
 
smellie said:
Venezuela did order 5000 riles in 7mm Second Optimum, aka 7mm HV. The rifles were rebarreled a number of years ago by CAVIM and now are 7.62x51.

I REALLY want one of those takeoff barrels!

It would be rather good if we could see a photo this cartridge from the side, preferably with a grid screen behind it or with a known 7.62 NATO round beside it.

Canada did make small lots of ammo for most of the Trials rifles, including the Canadian-built EM rifles. Note that this round has no NATO cross-in-circle headstamp; it is not a standardised cartridge. It could be anything from a .280 EM-2 to a .280/.30 to a 7mm2op to..... possible 7.62?????

I only KNOW two things:
1. I want one, and
2. we NEED a side-view photo with something to measure it by.
.
Click to expand...

I believe that the 7mm Liviano is actually the 7mm 2nd Opt, and the illustrated cart is probably 7mmHV.

Actually Canada didn't load all of the 280 trials cartridges.

I have a cartridge with this exact headstamp, it is a 7mm HV.

I probably have a spare DAC 7mm HV 52 if you really want one, failing that I know who does.
 
Da52

Lee Enfield said:
That will almost certainly be a .284" bullet if it's actually measured; "7mm High Velocity" or "7mm Second Optimum"

The chamber drawing for 7.62x51 "NATO" was accepted in @Dec 1953.

If it is a .30 bullet, the case is not 7.62x51mm, it is some variation on the "T65" case. Either a "long neck" .300 Savage, or close to a straight .300 Savage... ~ I haven't seen a DAC case, but have a couple Dominion headstamped .300 Sav cases in my "Pre-NATO" collection.

I have variations to 1947 (1946??) in my "pre-NATO" collection.
Click to expand...

Lee Enfield. You are correct, its a .284 diameter bullet. Have taken some comparison pics. Will foreward to Beater, he will post tonight. Also picked up some CDN EX2, experimental ammo in 10 round boxes. Stamped DA58. Strippers are stamped 10-58. Are these the first Canadian stripper clips made? I will be putting some of this ammo up for trade. Looking for old CIL 32-20 ammo, display boards, etc. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting cartridge. Next question: anyone have any information on the FN-49's issued to the RCR's in 1954 at Niagara on the lake base? Is it possible this 7mm HV was made for the CDN 49's?
Best Regards, C1A1
 
c1a1 said:
Lee Enfield. You are correct, its a .284 diameter bullet. Have taken some comparison pics. Will foreward to Beater, he will post tonight. Also picked up some CDN EX2, experimental ammo in 10 round boxes. Stamped DA58. Strippers are stamped 10-58. Are these the first Canadian stripper clips made? I will be putting some of this ammo up for trade. Looking for old CIL 32-20 ammo, display boards, etc. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting cartridge. Next question: anyone have any information on the FN-49's issued to the RCR's in 1954 at Niagara on the lake base? Is it possible this 7mm HV was made for the CDN 49's?
Best Regards, C1A1
Click to expand...

Earliest (conventional) charger illustrated in Feb '58
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~kevin_a/Canada.html
The EX2 lot 131 illustration may be from my collection....(and misattributed)

I would be willing to bet more than $2 that the guns issued to the RCR in 1954 were Ex1 and possibly some Ex2 rifles.

Canada would have had no use for FN-49s when we already had FAL trials rifles (delivered starting @March '54) and M1 Garands within the supply system.
 
c1a1 said:
Lee Enfield. You are correct, its a .284 diameter bullet. Have taken some comparison pics. Will foreward to Beater, he will post tonight. Also picked up some CDN EX2, experimental ammo in 10 round boxes. Stamped DA58. Strippers are stamped 10-58. Are these the first Canadian stripper clips made? I will be putting some of this ammo up for trade. Looking for old CIL 32-20 ammo, display boards, etc. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting cartridge. Next question: anyone have any information on the FN-49's issued to the RCR's in 1954 at Niagara on the lake base? Is it possible this 7mm HV was made for the CDN 49's?
Best Regards, C1A1
Click to expand...

What leads you to believe that FN49s were ever used in the Cdn Army?
 
Canadian FN-49's

purple said:
What leads you to believe that FN49s were ever used in the Cdn Army?
Click to expand...

In 1954, a friend was in the RHLI reserves in Ontario. He remembers looking at a rifle that was being tested by the RCR's. He knows his firearms, joined the Regulars in'57. Served 20+ years, used, and has owned FALS. Described the bayonet as having a wood handle, no blood groove, similar to a M1 Carbine blade, with a formed steel scabbard. Someone must have some pics somewhere?
 
The early FN FAL bayonets also had wooden grips/scales. There is a possibility that some of these may have been used with Cdn trial rifles before production got underway in Canada. I cannot conceive of Canada evaluating the earlier FN49 when we were on the process of adopting the improved FAL at that time.
 
c1a1
The bayonet you describe is the "Trials FAL" which was used with the FAL EX1 and EX2 rifles on issue the Cdn Army.
DA made the 7mm Compromise and the 7mm Second Optimum ctg 1951-2.
The 10 EM2s made at Longbranch were in 7x51 Compromise calibre.
 
green said:
c1a1
The bayonet you describe is the "Trials FAL" which was used with the FAL EX1 and EX2 rifles on issue the Cdn Army.
DA made the 7mm Compromise and the 7mm Second Optimum ctg 1951-2.
The 10 EM2s made at Longbranch were in 7x51 Compromise calibre.
Click to expand...

One of them was cut and lengthaned to 30-06 its illustrated in the 30-06 book with about 3 graft marks. Aparently it didn't work very well....
 
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