Damaged forcing cone on S&W Model 66-2, advice needed
- Thread starter rc_p120
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To those in the know, I got this offer of a repair with a brief description of the 'new' rebarreling process the gunsmith now takes. Does it sound more reliable and sound? I might take this offer, I might just wash my hands of the whole thing and get refunded.... Dunno yet.
I'm a bit baffled by someone taking the time to cut down a barrel blank and try to re-use a bored out barrel as a shroud, kinda like a dan wesson? Is this a four inch tube with liner sticking out the front to make 4.25ish? There is a bit of engineering involved to make sure things don't shoot loose... ...if it were my project, I'd start with a either used 6 inch factory barrel or a new clarks custom target barrel w/o front sight and red dot it.
R
R
This method of relining barrels works fine, on low pressure cartridges. I've done a couple of 22LR bbls this way and a couple of 22 rf magnum bbls the same way.
Some of the semi auto pistol barrels I've seen, have had the complete chamber area, silver soldered into the lug collars. It seems to work quite well. Mind you, silver solder is tough and even then, it needs to be done properly.
I have never seen a sleeve installed on a 357 mag. Again, I haven't seen a lot of sleeves installed on many other calibers, than 22 rim fires.
A friend of mine, installed some 45 cal sleeves in black powder firearms. The drill he used was to large and the gap between the sleeve and the remaining bbl, was to large. This caused a few bulged chambers and in one case, a catastrophic failure.
Replacement barrels for pistols, are difficult to find in Canada. Even in the US. Unless you are looking for match barrels of course. Then, they are manufactured to factory specs for semi autos and often bull barrels for revolvers. Understandable, they don't have barrel length issues in the US.
The pricing on new manufactured extended barrels is ridiculous. I recently picked up an extended bbl for my Mod 39 S&W. I ordered it almost two years ago. I was thinking, it was never coming. I was actually going to try the brazing route, I saw on another pistol.
The product that finally showed up, was fantastic. It fit perfectly. I never had to do any fitting at all and it shoots well.
There are thousands of hand guns in Canada that need to have their barrels replaced with longer barrels to comply with the law, regarding barrel lengths. I won't go on about the stupidity of those laws or the people that made them.
I don't understand, why someone like Wolverine, usually on the ball and first to see a definite moneymaker don't bring them in.
Some of the semi auto pistol barrels I've seen, have had the complete chamber area, silver soldered into the lug collars. It seems to work quite well. Mind you, silver solder is tough and even then, it needs to be done properly.
I have never seen a sleeve installed on a 357 mag. Again, I haven't seen a lot of sleeves installed on many other calibers, than 22 rim fires.
A friend of mine, installed some 45 cal sleeves in black powder firearms. The drill he used was to large and the gap between the sleeve and the remaining bbl, was to large. This caused a few bulged chambers and in one case, a catastrophic failure.
Replacement barrels for pistols, are difficult to find in Canada. Even in the US. Unless you are looking for match barrels of course. Then, they are manufactured to factory specs for semi autos and often bull barrels for revolvers. Understandable, they don't have barrel length issues in the US.
The pricing on new manufactured extended barrels is ridiculous. I recently picked up an extended bbl for my Mod 39 S&W. I ordered it almost two years ago. I was thinking, it was never coming. I was actually going to try the brazing route, I saw on another pistol.
The product that finally showed up, was fantastic. It fit perfectly. I never had to do any fitting at all and it shoots well.
There are thousands of hand guns in Canada that need to have their barrels replaced with longer barrels to comply with the law, regarding barrel lengths. I won't go on about the stupidity of those laws or the people that made them.
I don't understand, why someone like Wolverine, usually on the ball and first to see a definite moneymaker don't bring them in.
It baffles me as well. I've swapped a few S&W barrels over the years and never had to line one. Damaged frame threads maybe? - dan
Here are some pics of the new replacement barrel being offered to me. Forcing cone appears to be factory one piece now.
Thoughts?
Front- http://oi43.tinypic.com/28km3qw.jpg
Back- http://oi43.tinypic.com/2jb0vc.jpg
Thoughts?
Front- http://oi43.tinypic.com/28km3qw.jpg
Back- http://oi43.tinypic.com/2jb0vc.jpg
I agree with what Robin, Bearhunter, Dan and Ian said. would add that I wouldn't purchase a pistol with a barrel liner and you may find resale a little tough. There is a reason 12/6 pistols go so cheap on EE...... if it was easy and cheap to rebarrel them to meet restricted ...a lot more folks would do it.
I would ask one thing though ....could you please post a photo of the MUZZLE of your CURRENT
(defective) setup?? I'd like to see if there is evidence of a liner and if it protrudes from the "shroud"thanks
I would ask one thing though ....could you please post a photo of the MUZZLE of your CURRENT
(defective) setup?? I'd like to see if there is evidence of a liner and if it protrudes from the "shroud"thanks
OP, the barrel you're being offered, is no different than the one you already have.
IMHO, if the gunsmith can't match the barrel profile, he should be using larger diameter sleeves. They are available in just about any diameter required. The sleeve, should have the threads cut into it, should have a shoulder about 4 cm from the forcing cone about .030 in all the way around. Then, the original barrel should be only thick enough to provide a profile, not take up the pressure. This isn't a difficult set up on a decent lathe.
Your pics are nice and sharp, but you are looking at another disaster, if you insist on loading 125 gr, full powered 357mag fodder into the pistol.
The way this smith is relining, is a recipe for disaster. That is IMHO of course.
Rebarreling a revolver or semi auto, isn't difficult. It is meticulous though and needs to be done right. Smith and Wesson revolvers, have the same thread pitch in each caliber. I will look it up for my own information but I think they all use the same thread pitch and only the threaded length is different.
The crazy cost of getting the replacement barrels manufactured is the big issue. A used M39 or M59 S&W will go for $350 to $450, even in excellent condition right now. The number of eligible buyers, is decreasing every day. A new barrel, made to restricted length, runs about the same cost. Then, there is the fitting cost, shipping cost, etc. This will bring the value of the pistol up to $900+ to get it re categorized as restricted. Very difficult to justify the cost and cheaper to just buy a new pistol that meets the regulations. Problem is, the pistols made after 1945, can't be passed on to anyone, including family, unless they have 12-6 status or the firearm has been fitted with a restricted length barrel.
Somehow, I think the excessive cost of the replacement barrels is because of heavy mark up prices. I know what blank barrels cost. I can get a 25 in X 3/4 hammer forged barrel, delivered to my doorstep for $125. This would make up five round barrels or sleeves. Add another $100 for a CNC set up and $50 for fitting, the barrels should be economically made up and install for around $250 per firearm. Stainless would be a few bucks cheaper, not much more.
IMHO, if the gunsmith can't match the barrel profile, he should be using larger diameter sleeves. They are available in just about any diameter required. The sleeve, should have the threads cut into it, should have a shoulder about 4 cm from the forcing cone about .030 in all the way around. Then, the original barrel should be only thick enough to provide a profile, not take up the pressure. This isn't a difficult set up on a decent lathe.
Your pics are nice and sharp, but you are looking at another disaster, if you insist on loading 125 gr, full powered 357mag fodder into the pistol.
The way this smith is relining, is a recipe for disaster. That is IMHO of course.
Rebarreling a revolver or semi auto, isn't difficult. It is meticulous though and needs to be done right. Smith and Wesson revolvers, have the same thread pitch in each caliber. I will look it up for my own information but I think they all use the same thread pitch and only the threaded length is different.
The crazy cost of getting the replacement barrels manufactured is the big issue. A used M39 or M59 S&W will go for $350 to $450, even in excellent condition right now. The number of eligible buyers, is decreasing every day. A new barrel, made to restricted length, runs about the same cost. Then, there is the fitting cost, shipping cost, etc. This will bring the value of the pistol up to $900+ to get it re categorized as restricted. Very difficult to justify the cost and cheaper to just buy a new pistol that meets the regulations. Problem is, the pistols made after 1945, can't be passed on to anyone, including family, unless they have 12-6 status or the firearm has been fitted with a restricted length barrel.
Somehow, I think the excessive cost of the replacement barrels is because of heavy mark up prices. I know what blank barrels cost. I can get a 25 in X 3/4 hammer forged barrel, delivered to my doorstep for $125. This would make up five round barrels or sleeves. Add another $100 for a CNC set up and $50 for fitting, the barrels should be economically made up and install for around $250 per firearm. Stainless would be a few bucks cheaper, not much more.
Apparently the new barrel is different, it's the same threads and cone as factory but 'puts a collar on the front of the barrel just after the front sight'. Pics in post #27.
Would that be just as risky as the barrel job before? It appears better, but I'm getting mixed reactions. Would the same #### just happen again? I really like the M66, and I really like the 4.25" barrel... Alot more than I do the 686 or others. But if this new barrel job I've been offered is just the same hazard as before, I will steer clear.
Would that be just as risky as the barrel job before? It appears better, but I'm getting mixed reactions. Would the same #### just happen again? I really like the M66, and I really like the 4.25" barrel... Alot more than I do the 686 or others. But if this new barrel job I've been offered is just the same hazard as before, I will steer clear.
I have a couple of K frame 357's, nothing wrong with them. Just with our government's retarded gun laws. - dan
That collar at the muzzle, will not fix all the wrong with that liner job. It may even make it worse.
Obviously, the short 125 grain bullet canted on its way into the forcing cone on the original bbl. Maybe the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone was to big???? I can't tell from your pics.
There are other issues here as well. Like how hot were you loading your cartridges???
Anyway, from here on in, YOUR CALL. IMHO, that isn't a safe conversion.
It would appear that the liner is not threaded into the frame; consequently, I would run, not walk, from the proposed fix.
If I understand it correctly, the threads hold the shroud to the frame and then a collar at the muzzle holds the liner to the shroud.
I kinda think the reason we have the L frame is because the K isn't the most robust at the best of times for 357 and, in this scenario, existing robustness has been further comprimised.
As the revolver is fired, things heat up... ...with the long distances between the threads engaging material in this set up, metal will expand at different rates. If the shroud doesn't fail first, my next guess would be diminishing cylinder gap as the liner gets longer due to the thermal expansion.
R
If I understand it correctly, the threads hold the shroud to the frame and then a collar at the muzzle holds the liner to the shroud.
I kinda think the reason we have the L frame is because the K isn't the most robust at the best of times for 357 and, in this scenario, existing robustness has been further comprimised.
As the revolver is fired, things heat up... ...with the long distances between the threads engaging material in this set up, metal will expand at different rates. If the shroud doesn't fail first, my next guess would be diminishing cylinder gap as the liner gets longer due to the thermal expansion.
R
The reason we have the L frame is that back when the police all carried 357 revolvers, a bunch of the departments decided that the officers had to practice and qualify with the full power ammo they carried on the street rather then low powered 38 rounds. This huge increase in wear on the K frames (J frame 357's didn't exist then), essentially caused by the 125 gr JHP loads, caused cracked forcing cones. It also made the revolvers a lot harder to control. The police departments using Colt Pythons didn't have most of these issues, and S&W paid attention. Hence the Lframe. Slightly larger frame then the K (almost identical to the Python's 41 sized frame, as a matter of fact), but with the same K sized grip. Heavy full length underlug to help soak up the recoil, like the Python. It was a home run, but sadly most police agencies switched to 9mm autoloaders shortly after that. - dan
Looks like someone might have sleeved the barrel projection to narrow the jump gap from cylinder to barrel and the first high pressure 357 destroyed it and left pieces to be caught up in the second round to cause high pressure. This is not the S/W's fault. Something you, the previous owner and the smith who did the work must sort out if this is the case-- all the best Art.
Hey AP, here's the muzzle end of my current damaged barrel. I don't think there's a sleeve on the muzzle end of this one like there is on the replacement barrel being offered to me. But I'm new to this. Whatchu think?
http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cgemgx.jpg
http://oi44.tinypic.com/34pb8l2.jpg
The gunsmith that did this went to a lot of trouble. You can see from the way the front sight is set back that he left the front 1/2" or so of the "liner" the same outside diameter as the barrel "sleeve". The two appear very nicely mated. This makes a continuous barrel, required for the conversion from prohibited to restricted. He almost got it right.
The liner needs to be thicker, and have its chamber end threaded. The barrel "sleeve" -- the outer remaining original part of the barrel -- needs to be bored out to a larger diameter. No bits and pieces. Your gunsmith needs to buy himself the right die, or cut the threads. He needs to leave enough of the forcing cone so he can trim it back after the barrel is assembled. This will be much easier to turn to the right position, since your former barrel, now a "sleeve", will rotate freely.
Your gunsmith needs to check out how Dan Wesson does this. Their system works great and even allows barrels to be exchanged by the user. They have a liner and an outer shroud too.
This was a lot of work. It's a shame the gunsmith didn't make the liner the right diameter (larger) and thread it. That arrangement would have held up quite nicely. He can still do it over. Ask if the liner will be threaded this time... that would be a start.
Hard to be confident in the product, regardless, after all this.
The liner needs to be thicker, and have its chamber end threaded. The barrel "sleeve" -- the outer remaining original part of the barrel -- needs to be bored out to a larger diameter. No bits and pieces. Your gunsmith needs to buy himself the right die, or cut the threads. He needs to leave enough of the forcing cone so he can trim it back after the barrel is assembled. This will be much easier to turn to the right position, since your former barrel, now a "sleeve", will rotate freely.
Your gunsmith needs to check out how Dan Wesson does this. Their system works great and even allows barrels to be exchanged by the user. They have a liner and an outer shroud too.
This was a lot of work. It's a shame the gunsmith didn't make the liner the right diameter (larger) and thread it. That arrangement would have held up quite nicely. He can still do it over. Ask if the liner will be threaded this time... that would be a start.
Hard to be confident in the product, regardless, after all this.
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