Damascus Re-barreling Q.

thebuckhunter

thebuckhunter

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I'm thinking of re-barreling an old damascus sxs. Is it worth it? It's an old Jannsen and sons, so not too much value there. It's the only sxs in the stable and I'd like to keep it. More for nostalgia and the odd grouse. Also, is there a reputable 'smith that you'd recommend to do the work. I'd like to keep the whole project under $300 if it's feasible. Thanks in advance,

-Jason

EDIT: Thanks for the response Tiriaq. What I should have said was to re-barrel with a modern barrel as opposed to damascus.

-Jason
 
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It is not going to happen for under $300. Would be more in the neighbourhood of $2000, up, for rebarrelling by using the original breech as a monoblock and installing new tubes. If the barrels are not in good enough condition to shoot with appropriate ammunition, you might consider .410 inserts, assuming the acton is sound.
 
My wife, who in general, is extremely tolerant of my gun obsession, would hit the roof if I had to out and get more reloading gear. I own more than 1 set of dies in calibers that I don't have!:D I "plan" on buying guns for these calibers someday, just that they're all cf. I have 3 presses, but only use my Lee 3-hole turret, it does what I need. If I were to mount a MEC or a Load -All on my bench, she would just lose it. Is it possibe to remove the gunpowder in a new shell and replace it with the equvalent of black powder? It couldn't be that easy could it? :onCrack: :popCorn:

-Jason
 
Using the original breech as a monoblock and fitting modern tubes is the standard way of rebarrelling a double. The original ribs are lifted and reinstalled. To make an entirely new set of replacement barrels would be prohibitive.
There are many opinions about shooting damacus or twist barrels. The Birmingham Proof House will inspect, gauge and proof test welded barrels, and approve them for use with smokeless powder, if the gun passes. While there are those who maintain that no gun with welded barrels should ever be fired with any type of ammunition, there are others who believe that there is no harm in using appropriate ammuntion in a gun with welded barrels if it is a quality piece in sound condition. Most of the old twist barrel guns I see are neither good quality, nor in sound condition. I have a Model 1894 Remington with 2 stripe damascus barrels, and it is an excellent shooter. I also shoot muzzleloaders with twist barrels.
 
What does it say on the Damascus barrels of your shotgun? Damascus barrels were the premium barrels and sometimes they had regular barrels that were Damascus etched to give the appearance of the more expensive Damascus barrel. The exact wording may give a clue to the type of steel in the barrel. But even if it is steel and not Damascus the chambers will be too short for the fold crimped 2 3/4 in modern 12 gauge shells ,as apposed to the old shorter roll crimped shells and the chambers will have to be chambered longer. Also the proof marks on the barrel may give a clue to the type of barrel and whether it was proofed for smokeless powder.
 
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My camera's fubar. :( It states "Fine Damascus Finish", and on both barrels "Choke Bored". On the bottom of both barrels there are 2 provisional proof marks and one definitive proof marks (black powder). All are Belgian. Also under the chambers are choke 18.2 over 18.1. There is also a 12 over a "C" inside a diamond. I can't find any info on that mark. Also on both barrels there is a star over an "H" with an arrow going down. I can find no reference to this mark either. I slid a fired 2.75" shell (star crimped) in the chamber and it went all the way in, but a fired 3" shell would not. Could the chamber also be for a 2.75" shell? Either way, the action is tight and has not been peened anywhere. The pins move freely and the extractor works as well. Both triggers are hard to pull, at about 8-10 lbs, but both function flawlessly. These are the reason's that I'd like to keep the gun and fire modern ammo (maybe the mini shotshells if available). Are there any 'smiths that are capable of putting modern barrels on this gun in Canada? Thanks again,

-Jason
 
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There are a couple of British trained gunmakers in ON who could do this work. Les Paul is in Oshawa. There is another gentleman in Komoka. "Fine Damascus Finish" suggets that the barrels are steel with a finish applied which simulates damascus. At the time the gun was made, damascus barrels commanded a premium, so it was not unusual to apply a finish for appearance's sake.
 
Your main concerns are; are the barrels reasonably tight to the breach and are they free of any really deep pits. Also is there any major pittiing and rusting hidden under the ribs.
While the chambers are probably for 2 5/8" shells, in my opinion at least 2 3/4" plastic shells are thin enough to shoot in the shorter chambers. Paper shells are not. You should be able to reload plastic shells with black powder with a simple and inexpensive Lee shotshell loading press. Also there are some smokeless loads that keep pressures down around 7000 psi. I would suggest tieing the gun to a tire and firing it with a string for the first shot.

cheers mooncoon
 
Rebarrelling would cost thousands, just load some Black Powder shotshells, I reloaded them for years by hand using card wads, felt wads, and lubed felt wads, no plastic!! Actually you can use plastic hulls as they are easier to cut down to 2 1/2" if necessary, there is a small tool you can get that fits into a drill or drill press to roll crimp your ammo, works slick, 80-90 grs of FFG 1 oz. or 1 1/8oz. of shot(3dram) and make up the space dif. with felt, card, etc. The felt wads lubed with black powder lube make cleanup afterwards a snap.
 
Jannsen and Sons weren't among the better Belgian gunmakers. Unless the gun were in pristine condition and nitro proofed I'd hang it on a wall. Sleeving the gun (inserting new barrel tubes into the breech block) would be far more than the gun is worth. I wouldn't consider such a job unless it would increase the potential resale value of the gun and with a Jannsen it's probably not a consideration.

Les Paul in Oshawa could do it, so could Nick Makinson in Komoka and Steve Milton at Precision Arms in King City.
 
Damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot with any modern ammo. BP or not. Damascus barreled shotguns are wall hangers. Period. If you could find a smithy who would touch such a job, you'd still have a receiver that was made for BP pressures. It would not handle any modern ammo.
 
sunray said:
Damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot with any modern ammo. BP or not. Damascus barreled shotguns are wall hangers. Period. If you could find a smithy who would touch such a job, you'd still have a receiver that was made for BP pressures. It would not handle any modern ammo.
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Perhaps you might do some research before you spout off. :rolleyes:

Start by reading the work of a man named Sherman Bell in Double Gun Journal. Or maybe you could investigate the work being done by Teague in the UK or perhaps Briley in the U.S.

You might look into the Birmingham Proof house where many Damascus barrels have been proof tested for modern shells. You can tell by the little marks they stamp on the guns.

You're very poorly informed and shouldn't be offering opinions on subjects you clearly know nothing about. This would be one of them.
 
Sunray...where did you get that info from? Some very fine damascus barrels are giving great service including some for yours truly. I use mine alot for skeet, hunting, in fact last year had luck goose hunting with an 1870s vintage British double that has beautiful twist barrels. Twist barrels that couldn't be duplicated today, no wonder they were more expensive than solid steel barrels. I use black powder only, 2 1/2" shells with either lead or bismuth(waterfowl) and load the shells by hand(lovingly).
 
There is a belief that the reason some DAMASCUS BARRELS have failed in the past is because people have tried to fire 2 3/4 in. folded crimp MAGNUM smokeless powder loads in 2 5/8 chambered and poorly maintained Damascus barreled shotguns. The 2 3/4 in folded crimp unfolds in front of the chamber and basically obstructs the barrel , increasing chamber pressures. If a Damascus barrel has the chamber lengthened or shorter roll crimped shells that are loaded to lower pressures are used, if the shotgun is otherwise in good shape there should be no problems. Your JANNSEN AND SONS shotgun with the "FINE DAMASCUS FINISH" IS VERY LIKELY A SOLID STEEL BARREL, but unless it has had the chambers lengthened , it should not be used to fire 2 3/4 in shells . Yes you can fit a modern 2 3/4 in. shell in the chamber but the folded crimps are much longer than the old roll crimps that were popular when this gun was made. Have it checked by a gunsmith that works on old doubles, not someone who mounts scopes at your local sporting goods store.Also reaming out the chambers is very cheap compared to have new barrels made on an old lesser quality shotgun. Also reloading 7/8 ounce 12 gauge loads with low pressures is very easy.
 
Ease up on sunray

What he says is at least perfectly safe, if not 100% correct. Why jump all over him?

I think there was about a 50 year overlap from when fluid steel barrels were first made and until making damascus was discontinued. There are some extremely strong damascus barrels and there are some real crappy weak ones as well. The average guy can't tell the difference. I have been gunsmithing for 40 years and I would not trust myself to tell anyone their damascus gun is safe to shoot with smokeless powder. I was taught the only way to be sure how strong a damascus barrel is, would be to have it fluroscoped.

Generally speaking it is not wise to shoot smokeless powder in most damascus barrel guns.

It is also unwise to shoot modern ammunition in old short chambered guns.

I know there are quite a few "safe" damascus barrels being shot with smokeless ammo today.
 
As long as the barrells are nitro proofed you could use Gamebore ammunition which is loaded by Kent there are a couple blackpowder loads,even one loaded with tungsten matrix for the odd duck.This would be my answer to this problem.
 
guntech said:
What he says is at least perfectly safe, if not 100% correct. Why jump all over him?
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Sure it is 100 per cent safe. If you never fire a damascus barrelled gun every there is no risk of them ever blowing up. The same could be said about any gun.

What it is most certainly not is 100 per cent correct.:rolleyes:

guntech said:
I have been gunsmithing for 40 years and I would not trust myself to tell anyone their damascus gun is safe to shoot with smokeless powder.
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I wouldn't trust you either. I would seek the opinions of a qualified double gunsmith with experience with the various dynamics involved with damascus barrels and with a comprehensive understanding of nitro proof.

It is true that some damascus barrels and some fluid steel barrels should not be fired with modern ammuntion but to make a blanket statement that no damascus guns should ever be fired with anything is simply incorrect.
 
Claybuster said:
I would seek the opinions of a qualified double gunsmith with experience with the various dynamics involved with damascus barrels and with a comprehensive understanding of nitro proof.
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How about listing those in Canada that you know are qualified as a:
Doubles gunsmith with experience with the various dynamics involved with damascus barrels and with a comprehensive understanding of nitro proof.
 
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