Damascus?

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horseshoe

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PLEASE, forgive me if this has been covered before. I did a search, and didn't find what I was looking for.

How can one tell if an old SxS has a damascus barrel or not?

While sorting through some of Dad's old guns, we found 2 old 12ga's that we don't know anything about.

One of them is stamped "forged steel", which I'm pretty sure means it's not damsascus, however the other one is a J Manton & co that has no markings on it.

I figure you guys will probably be able to give me an answer even faster than google...

Much appreciated.
 
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One of them is a Steven's, no external hammers. The other is a J. Manton & Co with external hammers.

I would love to post pics, but haven't been able to figure out how to do that yet...
 
What I understand from Grandpa and going back to the days way before Google was to look for a very almost chequery grainy pattern in the steel of the barrels. Also, at the muzzle, look for any sign that the barrel is fraying. If so, it is going to be a damascus steel barrel. In any case my advice would be DON'T fire it but then I assume you already know that.
Maybe somebody on Gunnutz know about proofmarks for Damascus barrels and can advise you what to look for but I think some guns lacked any proofmarks. (I'm just an old guy going by what my grandpaw talked about.)
 
Looking at the barrels is the easiest way to tell, for sure.
There were also some faked up damascus guns for a while, an some guns that are damascus that are proofed for steel, the water mark proofs will tell you.
Here's a pic of my Westley Richards' barrel, you can clearly see the damascus pattern in the barrel.
wrname.jpg

Cat
 
If the damascus pattern isn't immediately apparent, remove the fore end, and open the action to release the barrels. On the underside of the barrels is an area that is built up slightly and flattened to match up to the water table on the receiver. This area is known as the barrel flats. In addition to being the area where proof marks are typically found (on the barrel flats themselves, or on the barrels near the barrel flats), there is seldom any wear to the metal finish in this area. If there's any damascus pattern to be found, it'll be here almost for certain.

I'd be surprised if a J. Manton hammergun were equipped with fluid steel barrels. He died in 1835 - long before fluid steel barrels were developed.
 
straightshooter said:
If the damascus pattern isn't immediately apparent, remove the fore end, and open the action to release the barrels. On the underside of the barrels is an area that is built up slightly and flattened to match up to the water table on the receiver. This area is known as the barrel flats. In addition to being the area where proof marks are typically found (on the barrel flats themselves, or on the barrels near the barrel flats), there is seldom any wear to the metal finish in this area. If there's any damascus pattern to be found, it'll be here almost for certain.

I'd be surprised if a J. Manton hammergun were equipped with fluid steel barrels. He died in 1835 - long before fluid steel barrels were developed.
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It would be interesting to find out of in fact that gun had English proofs or Belgian proofs!!:D
A genuine Manton is a real treasure these days if it is in shooting condition!
Cat
 
Lex said:
Also, at the muzzle, look for any sign that the barrel is fraying. If so, it is going to be a damascus steel barrel. In any case my advice would be DON'T fire it but then I assume you already know that.
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Sorry Lex, but what you have posted is the typical misinformation that surrounds these fine old shotguns.

Firstly, any barrel that shows "fraying" (whatever that means) is garbage. I would also suggest that what your Grandpappy thought was Damascus was actually "twist" steel barrels - in which case your advice of "DON'T fire it" would be sound.

FWIW, the finer examples of Damascus barrels, like those found on Parker, AH Fox, and other quality guns was extremely strong and can safely be fired with reasonably pressured loads. For added safety (and nostalgia) most people recommend firing only Black Powder loads in most Damascus (especially in the US/CANADA). In the UK, where many, many old shotguns have been re-proofed, you will find an abundance of Damascus guns firing heavy game loads (lead), as heavy as you will find on the shelves of your local CT.

IIRC, a fellow in the US decided to test the strength of Damascus barrels. Using a GH Parker 12 guage, he ran repeated pressure test loads through the gun until he reached a ridiculous level (don't quote me, but I believe it was in the high 30K PSI range - basically lever rifle pressures) before they failed. His observation was that the true failure pressure would have been significantly higher had he not already run a dozen or so test loads.

Keep in mind that 11-12,000 PSI is considered a high pressure load in shotgun.
 
For sure PP.

I have several damascus-barreled guns that I shoot without hesitation. At least 3 of them are over 100 years old. I'm sure none of them would hiccup if I fed them nitro target loads. To be on the safe side, though, I only shoot low pressure nitro loads like those available from Gamebore, or black powder.

Damascus barrels got an undeserved bad reputation because so many of them are 80 to 200 years old. When left to rust for that long, any barrel, no matter how originally constructed, will be unsafe.

But, despite the fact that they are definitely NOT inferior technology, it's still smart to be cautious with any gun that's that old.
 
Yes. There weren't many, but as you say during the transition some folks wanted damascus barrels but also wanted the lower prices afforded by fluid steel barrels. A few makers chose to respond by offering a "damascus finish".
 
I have to chime in here with some information to counter the real misinformation regarding damascus shotgun barrels. My 1952 Gun Digest (older than I am) advises against shooting ANY damascus shotgun. I still believe this is sound advice. You never know when one will 'let go' (regardless of the load you shoot) no matter how soundly constructed decades ago. Remember each time you shoot a shotgun your eyes and hands are close to a potentially catastrophic event. In other words, play with fire, expect to get burned. "I would rather be careful a thousand times than be dead once" - Mark Twain.
 
Shootshellz said:
I have to chime in here with some information to counter the real misinformation regarding damascus shotgun barrels. My 1952 Gun Digest (older than I am) advises against shooting ANY damascus shotgun. I still believe this is sound advice. You never know when one will 'let go' (regardless of the load you shoot) no matter how soundly constructed decades ago. Remember each time you shoot a shotgun your eyes and hands are close to a potentially catastrophic event. In other words, play with fire, expect to get burned. "I would rather be careful a thousand times than be dead once" - Mark Twain.
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Originally when Nitro/Smokless powder first came out it was loaded to the same weights as the old black powder loads. Resulting in catastrophic failure in some Damascus Guns. So originally the powers that be deemed it unsafe to shoot Nitro in any Damascus gun.
Later when Nitro was loaded properly a lot of Damascus guns were reproofed for Nitro. I have a factory Damascus gun proofed for 1 1/4 oz Nitro loads.
The only way to be truly be safe about a Damascus Gun is take it to a "quality" smith and have him check it out.
But to say all Damascus guns are unsafe to shoot with Nitro loads is simply wrong.
 
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Win/64 said:
Originally when Nitro/Smokless powder first came out it was loaded to the same weights as the old smokeless loads. Resulting in catastrophic failure in some Damascus Guns. So originally the powers that be deemed it unsafe to shoot Nitro in any Damascus gun.
Later when Nitro was loaded properly a lot of Damascus guns were reproofed for Nitro. I have a factory Damascus gun proofed for 1 1/4 oz Nitro loads.
The only way to be truly be safe about a Damascus Gun is take it to a "quality" smith and have him check it out.
But to say all Damascus guns are unsafe to shoot with Nitro loads is simply wrong.[/QUOTE]

You can buy brand new guns fitted with damascus barrels, if you have the means. I'm quite sure they won't put "unsafe" barrels on a $120,000 gun.

I continue to shoot mine without hesitation. It's a question of knowing the condition of the gun and the characteristics of the load you're using. I'm equally respectful of the condition of a 100 year old Winchester with thick, fluid steel barrels (or a 2 yr old gun left to rust, for that matter).

The pressures confirmed by the proof stamps and the condition of the gun are the salient criteria.
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Shootshellz said:
I have to chime in here with some information to counter the real misinformation regarding damascus shotgun barrels. My 1952 Gun Digest (older than I am) advises against shooting ANY damascus shotgun. I still believe this is sound advice. You never know when one will 'let go' (regardless of the load you shoot) no matter how soundly constructed decades ago. Remember each time you shoot a shotgun your eyes and hands are close to a potentially catastrophic event. In other words, play with fire, expect to get burned. "I would rather be careful a thousand times than be dead once" - Mark Twain.
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Not everything you read in a book can be taken as gospel.
It would not surprise me at all if the writer in 9152 had not shot a quality damascus shotgun , but had only experience with the cheaper "hardware store" type of guns that flooded the States in those days....
Cat
 
straightshooter said:
Win/64 said:
Originally when Nitro/Smokless powder first came out it was loaded to the same weights as the old black powder loads. Resulting in catastrophic failure in some Damascus Guns. So originally the powers that be deemed it unsafe to shoot Nitro in any Damascus gun.
Later when Nitro was loaded properly a lot of Damascus guns were reproofed for Nitro. I have a factory Damascus gun proofed for 1 1/4 oz Nitro loads.
The only way to be truly be safe about a Damascus Gun is take it to a "quality" smith and have him check it out.
But to say all Damascus guns are unsafe to shoot with Nitro loads is simply wrong.[/QUOTE]

You can buy brand new guns fitted with damascus barrels, if you have the means. I'm quite sure they won't put "unsafe" barrels on a $120,000 gun.

I continue to shoot mine without hesitation. It's a question of knowing the condition of the gun and the characteristics of the load you're using. I'm equally respectful of the condition of a 100 year old Winchester with thick, fluid steel barrels (or a 2 yr old gun left to rust, for that matter).

The pressures confirmed by the proof stamps and the condition of the gun are the salient criteria.
Click to expand...

The only loads I shoot in mine are low pressore 7/8 or 1 oz. loads.
Click to expand...
 
"J. Manton" is not going to be anybody associated with the British Manton gunmaking family. In all likelihood it will be a modest quality Belgian gun made for the trade. It will very likely have welded barrels. Who knows whether or not it will be a shooter?
cat - I suspect that W. Richards might be William Richards, a quality Birmingham maker. Didn't Westley Richard use his full name?
 
The J. Manton & Co. shotgun is a Belgian made shotgun that could have been proofed in Birmingham, thus having the Birmingham proof marks. The barrels are most likely "fine twist steel" and often says that on the rib. I have a J. Manton & Co. shotgun in my hands right now (ok, I put it down to type) and it is marked as I described. It is not the original English, Joseph Manton shotgun from much earlier and much more expensive. Mine is basically a wall hanger that I got for $50.00 just for that purpose. Too bad really as it has a nice walnut stock and forearm on it in very nice condition.
 
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