Danish 1891 revolver

[KotKotofeich]

Does anyone know why they are restricted and not antique?

FRN 99815 (look it up on armalytics.ca)

Barrel 140 mm, caliber 9.4 dutch rev (incorrect but a lot of obscure calibers are missing)

"1891" represents the year of entry in service in the Danish navy.
2,049 were produced.

 

[appleorangefish]

Do you mean the dutch knil 9.4mm revolvers? Or the 9.1mm danish marine revolver?

A lot of them there is no way to tell what year it's made, so the rcmp errs on the side of calling it restricted
If you can find an official source or documentation proving your particular revolver is made before 1897, the good firearms techs may add it to the FRT, but it may take several months.

 

[KotKotofeich]

The 9.1mm Danish navy (marine?) revolver.

So nice of them to keep us all safe from those evil 120+ year old revolvers. [eye roll]

So does anyone have any information on how the contract was fulfilled? I have confirmation that the first 600 were delivered before end of 1891... it would stand to reason the rest followed way before 1898 but I have no concrete proof of that. Anyone?

 

[snurge]

All I’ve seen have the post 1893 Belgian proofs.if you find one with pre 93 proofs you might convince them to accept it as antique.

 

[Milspectacles]

Do you mean the dutch knil 9.4mm revolvers? Or the 9.1mm danish marine revolver?

A lot of them there is no way to tell what year it's made, so the rcmp errs on the side of calling it restricted
If you can find an official source or documentation proving your particular revolver is made before 1897, the good firearms techs may add it to the FRT, but it may take several months.

The Dutch revolvers are actually pretty easy to prove antique or not, the problem is the data is not readily available online. I have a copy of the excellent book "Die Militarrevolver Der Niederlande" which details all of the development and production of each type. The RCMP uses the same data to determine antique criteria.

I agree that it is most likely their data is inconclusive and they have yet to observe a sample with the pre-1893 Belgian proofs. This revolver is actually pretty interesting, it looks like a licensed copy of the Levaux series of revolvers. Seems like a bit of an odd choice to switch to at the time when lots of other designs where available from Nagant, Webley, S&W, Colt, etc. From a cursory glance online there is nearly no information published or otherwise on these guns.

Don't have much else to add but will be interested if this turns out.

 

[appleorangefish]

The Dutch revolvers are actually pretty easy to prove antique or not, the problem is the data is not readily available online. I have a copy of the excellent book "Die Militarrevolver Der Niederlande" which details all of the development and production of each type. The RCMP uses the same data to determine antique criteria.

Any pointers for determining antique status on the Dutch 9.4mm revolvers?

The FRT writes

there are four distinct variations of the M91 Dutch East Indies revolver:
1) the original contract of 3754 revolvers, manufactured from 1894-5 by either WDW (using J.F.J. Bar-supplied parts) or JFJ Bar. Bar had originally agreed to supplycomplete revolvers, but as time progressed, Bar fell further behind schedule, and more and more of the contract had to be completed by WDW. These revolvers were serial numbered from 1 through 3754, and will bear Dutch inspector's/acceptance marks (usually consisting of a crowned "B" on all major parts). They will also usually (notalways) bear issue dates on the left forward side of the frame (1895), along with unit issue marks on the left side of the frame above the grip;
2) the second contract of 2200 revolvers, manufactured entirely by L. Wittich, for a contract issued in 1909; these revolvers continued the serial number range from thefirst series, from 3755 through 5954, and will also bear Dutch inspection/acceptance marks;
3) in 1920, a third contract for M91 revolvers was issued, this time to Vickers-Armstrong of England, for 5830 revolvers for issue to the Dutch East Indies Police. Theserevolvers turned out to be of substandard quality, and had to be sent to Fabrique National of Belgium, to be completely reworked. These revolvers had serial numbers ranging between 1 and 9000 in several blocks, but all bear English proof marks; and
4) private copies of the M91 revolver were also made by Bar, Beaumont, and Munts in Holland, and by Nagant, and Ancion Marx in Belgium; for private sale to Dutch officers and for civilians heading to the Dutch East Indies.

I'm guessing 1st issue contracts with the acceptance year can be easily proven to be before 1898, how about the private copy versions?

 

[Milspectacles]

Any pointers for determining antique status on the Dutch 9.4mm revolvers?

The FRT writes



I'm guessing 1st issue contracts with the acceptance year can be easily proven to be before 1898, how about the private copy versions?

Antique M91 revolvers are pretty few and far between, not just in Canada but altogether due to both higher production post 1900s as well as the harsh conditions these guns were subject to.

Regarding the private purchase models, that gets a little tricky. The models made by Bar, Beaumont and Joh. Munts could be placed into antique criteria if the revolver has unit markings or issue dates, on the left side of the frame like the FRT states, or possibly based on grip cartouches which were changed somewhat over time but again are not set in stone.

The excerpt from the FRT here I can tell was lifted straight from the book and I think there is a mis-translation, as far as the actual German in the book states, Nagant didn't make clones of the M91. Rather it was that they offered a revolver in the 9.4mm cartridge which was deemed acceptable for private purchase. The Nagant revolvers could be placed antique based on Belgian proofs. Ancion Marx was allegedly offering the M91 by 1896, however they were still listing the Dutch revolvers in their catalogue as late as 1931. Either way, without having the proper markings present, it would be a bit of a gamble to try and get antique status for a private purchase M91.

The book makes no specific mention if the private purchase models changed physical characteristics of the guns to match the changes in government contract models, other than the fact that most of the private production guns had an abadie system integrated into the gate mechanism.