Daro Handy Trap Workshop

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BCFred

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On Wednesday I went to a Daro Handy workshop at one of the clubs I belong to. It was interesting and quite thorough. I've been shooting more skeet than trap lately and have kind of been stuck in the low 20's in trap for quite awhile. At any rate, the workshop was a good chance to pick up some pointers from one of the greats. We shot 300 rounds interspersed with individual comments, gun fitting and so on. It turned out that I have to do some fairly radical changes to my BT-99, including reducing LOP by an inch or so and installing an adjustable comb because my eye doesn't line up with the front bead very well (one wonders how I could shoot in the 20's even if it is only in practice). No real surprises there and I feel encouraged to do the changes. But one of the main teaching points seemed very radical to me and we worked on it quite a bit. He taught that one should look at (through) the bead of the shotgun while calling for the bird, then react to the streak from the bird when it comes out and get the bead on it. There was a wealth of additional information in the workshop, of course, but I was struck at how contrary this view seemed to be with the prevailing idea, which emphasizes looking for the bird. I wondered if anyone else had opinions about this approach. I actually went over to the range this morning and shot another 100 birds just to see how things went. My scores haven't gone down and I feel pretty solid while using the method. I find this pretty encouraging when trying something new, and I intend to keep with it.
 
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That's definitely a radical approach and very different than what I first learned. But there are so many theories on hold and eye points that there's no harm in trying something new. The key is to stick with it. Generally after any instruction I backslide a little while I adopt the new system. Eventually it comes back.
 
Fred,
I think that for some, reacting to the streak may work as long as one does not shoot at the streak. For me, I break more targets and break them sooner when the target becomes clear. For me, I am working at keeping my gun still and not reacting to the target and only start my move when the target is clear.
 
You're right Claybuster. I don't want to flail around trying this and that all the time. I've been trying to review some of the points of view on eye position and so on that you mention and there does appear to be some agreement. But it looks like there are fairly large individual differences between shooters in what actually works for them too. So, it looks like it is a case of finding out what works for the individual shooter within fairly broad guidelines. I haven't quite figured this out and it takes me quite awhile to decide whether I actually want to use a particular approach or not too. For me sometimes just making a change improves my performance over the short term, which I find a bit confusing.
 
Thanks CR. Reacting to the streak only came up at the very end of the workshop. We were keeping the gun still and not reacting until the target was clear just as you say. The big difference for me was keeping a relationship between my eyes and the bead. Before the workshop, I would use the bead for checking my gun hold then I would look for the bird as I was calling for it. Now, I am trying to hold my eye on the bead and calling for the bird, then looking for the bird over the bead. The two are entirely different processes, of course. The emphasis was on taking shots quickly and pushing yourself outside your comfort zone too. This makes some sense because it gives less time for errors to creep in for one thing. It also leads to a more aggressive approach, which seems appropriate.
 
Fred,
I was going to take Daro's clinic also but ended up with food poisoning after the shoot the weekend before the clinic. I had a couple of conversations with Daro and he seems like a pretty good guy. Fun to watch him break 25 straight to win the the gold coin on sunday night. Also good to see such an accomplished shooter use a souped up 1100 for everything instead of a10 or 20 thousand dollar gun. Was the clinic worth the money? He actually stopped in my town just south a couple hours to go deer hunting next week and i was thinking of private lessons.
 
Hi Bogman. Sorry to hear about the food poisoning. The workshop cost $250.00 plus $50.00 for the the 300 birds we shot. I also bought Daro's book and DVD. This was important because it has allowed me to go over many of the points he made in the workshop. They were sold together for a reasonable price. I think he was actually recovering costs on them for workshop participants rather than trying to make large $ on them. We started near 8:30 and worked well into the afternoon. Ignoring the cost of birds, that puts the cost of instruction at about $40.00 per hour over the six hours or so, which is certainly fair enough. Daro worked on the guns first. He looked closely at how each person's gun fit them and recommended changes. He was also ready to make minor changes himself. In fact, he was able to adjust what he was doing to individual needs throughout the workshop as far as I could see. I felt that I could have benefitted more from the fitting section by bringing a gun with an adjustable comb. (My bad, I think most of us know a good fitting gun is important.) My BT-99 has an adjustable butt plate, but not an adjustable comb. I've already changed the LOP because of the workshop and ordered hardware from Graco for an adjustable comb. So, the first thing the workshop did was encourage me to make changes that I sort of suspected I should. (What's the sense of learning to shoot with the wrong tool?) There were brief paper and pencil instructions at the beginning and at the end of the workshop, including a handout listing the major points, but most instruction from this point occurred on the trap field. We shot a lot with instruction and correction being offered both individually and as a group. For me the workshop was worth it. I found that quite a few of the things I learned on my own from reading and so on weren't all that wrong. But I made quite a few minor and some major adjustments and there were quite a few things I hadn't really thought about that were in his presentation and paper work. It helped to read his book and watch his DVD, especially concerning how to use the eyes. The major change I have made in my own game is in the process of looking for the bird and the speed and aggressiveness with which I do things. I have noticed that my hits are more centered now, though I haven't quite eliminated the errors I make (one is falling in love with the bead...a definite no, no). I'm pretty solid at 22-23 out of 25 and not nearly as afraid of missing (shot yesterday to test again, we won't talk about the skeet). The one thing that I think requires more work in Daro's material is his description of the process of looking for the bird. It's his most important point, at least for me it is. But I feel it can be simplified a bit, perhaps through better summarization and highlighting in his writing. I think the 5 steps can be organized a bit better too. I find myself going to the book and searching through individual sections for what I want without the five steps being stamped into my memory along with an understanding of them. Of course, these are pretty minor points for what I got out of the process, and the material is there to found without too much effort. Finally, Daro is a pleasant person to be around and he is interested in what he is doing, good to be around and willing to give back to the game he has played so well for so long, that's for sure. Hope this helps Bogman. I'm going to shoot that Labour day classic next year...hope to see you there. Fred
 
Humm... interesting point on focusing on the bead... Because yes when you first see the bird you see the streak, but you need to see the bird clearly to break it cleanly. And the bird is 30+ yards away, so starting out by focusing on the bead would mean that your eyes would have to break your focus on the bead, track down the bird, then refocus onto the bird as you trace the "streak".

In my opinion, that is not efficient. When I was just starting out, this is exactly what I did, and I found that having to refocus is a very big distraction and slows your reaction time down. And sometimes, what I found is that if I start out focus on the bead, it will result in me unconciously focus back and forth between the bead and the bird, which is really bad.

Another disadvantage of focusing on the bead, is that focusing on anything CLOSE creates tunnel vision. Remeber the news story where a cop was shooting a bad guy and got the cyclist across the street? That's TUNNEL VISION. When in tunnel vision, you see a lot less of what's going on in the background, which is where the bird will appear, so you see the streak slower, too.

What I've found that works for me is a blank stare when calling for the bird. (Some would say you may want to lift your eye brow as you call the bird, too, to get more light, personnally I don't find it help, just strains my eyes more. All the light going into the eye is going through the cornia & irius, which is nowhere near the eye lids' when your eyes are open. So I fail to see how lifting your eye brow helps other than pyscological.)

A blank stare like when you are not focused on any particular object, (you know like when you have to listen to your wife/girlfriend ##### about some stuff that you did), just look ahead. This way, you are only focusing once. Your peripherial vision picks up the bird "streak" and your eyes move to focus on the bird. You skip the steps where you break focus on the bead then refocus. Now this is a tiny time saving, but if you are shooting 4 rounds of trap, then your muscles at the back of your eyes will thank you for the reduced work, and you don't need as much mental dexterity to succeed in the long run. You break the target faster, so your body uses less energy holding then swinging the gun. The total efficiency is maximized.

Not saying you have to do it my way, I just found that it works the best for me, and I am able to explain why I think it works. A lot of times, people get advice from other people that are based on personal beliefs rather than science.

In reality you can do it anyway you like, people can tell you that it's the worst way ever, but if it works for you and so long as you can do it consistently then go for it.
 
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Gasanwu. You're right, if I focus on the bead I miss. It's my mistake here in what I said. I don't mean focus on the bead and it isn't what Daro said. I mean keep the bead in your vision while looking beyond it while waiting for the bird, i.e. keep it more present than you think. I believe the instruction was this and not moving your eyes when you called, but look for the bird through the bead as it becomes visible. I was looking out for the bird but not keeping the bead present. I like your analysis and am going to study it a bit more.
 
I've gone back and tried to edit what I wrote Gasanwu. I think it is closer to what I am actually trying. After I see the bird and start tracking it sometimes the bead disappears and I just see the bird and it reappears afterwards. I still seem to hit when this happens as long as my follow through goes to this point. So, I don't worry about it. Time will tell whether it works consistently, of course.
 
I think eyes should be still and calm looking towards where you expect to see the target. The eyes will lock on and focus on any movement which should be or we hope is the target. There should be no problem if the sights are lined up and visable as long as the eyes do not focus on the sights. This should work well if the gun remains still til the target is locked in focus. Sometimes and often in clay sports other than trap the sights are moving faster than the target. In those cases the eyes focus on the faster movement which is the sights. For me, when that happens I very seldom score.

Fred, does Daro have a preference for a hold on the house or above?
 
I had this happen, too. When the bead sight moves faster than the target and your eyes break focus on the target and refocus on the gun.

The thing is though, the sight will have to move faster than the target most of the time, from your eyes' perspective anyway. Because you are reacting to a moving target, you are playing catch up with your swing. So anytime focus on the bird is broken, it's bad.

My solution was, 1st of all, if you have a fiber optic sight (which I had), lose it and get a plane white sight. You really don't want something in your view that's easier to focus on than the bird.

2ndly, set the gun up to shoot high so that you never have to cover the target with the gun, I think this is the easiest way to loose track of the bird. Now this works for trap, and to some degree skeet, can't say about other sports as I haven't tried them.


Covey Ridge said:
I think eyes should be still and calm looking towards where you expect to see the target. The eyes will lock on and focus on any movement which should be or we hope is the target. There should be no problem if the sights are lined up and visable as long as the eyes do not focus on the sights. This should work well if the gun remains still til the target is locked in focus. Sometimes and often in clay sports other than trap the sights are moving faster than the target. In those cases the eyes focus on the faster movement which is the sights. For me, when that happens I very seldom score.

Fred, does Daro have a preference for a hold on the house or above?
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Hmmm... it's interesting that you mention the sight reappears. I guess it's different with different people. But for me, when I'm able to focus on the bird, I force myself into creating a tunnel vision for the bird, this is good tunnel vision btw. I see nothing else, even when the barrel of the gun aligns with the bird, it's a blur at best, I certainly do not see the sight ever...

I think the sight is only useful when you mount the gun, you can use it to check for consistent mount each time, but after that, it's useless. In my opinion, on a trap gun, it shouldn't even be called a sight, it leads to confusion especially for the newer shooters, and even more so if these new shooters have a background in rifle shooting with iron sights.

Now if you just see the sight as a blur as it reappears, that's GOOD. But if when the sight "reappears" as you said, and it's clear, then at that instance, you are not focused on the bird but the sight, and that's BAD. Because this could be what I described earlier as focusing back and forth between the sight and the bird.

Now all this, is only relevent if you are like me a "swing through" shooter. If you are one of the rare breeds, that can lead-stop-shoot and break the target, then all the power to you and what I have said goes out the window completely.


BCFred said:
I've gone back and tried to edit what I wrote Gasanwu. I think it is closer to what I am actually trying. After I see the bird and start tracking it sometimes the bead disappears and I just see the bird and it reappears afterwards. I still seem to hit when this happens as long as my follow through goes to this point. So, I don't worry about it. Time will tell whether it works consistently, of course.
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Hi CR. Daro recommends holding above the trap lid about 1 to 3 feet in his book. This changes depending on conditions, of course. It surprised me a bit, but he recommended a high hold (1 to 1.5 feet) for one-eyed shooters in his book too.
 
Gasanwu said:
Hmmm... it's interesting that you mention the sight reappears. I guess it's different with different people. But for me, when I'm able to focus on the bird, I force myself into creating a tunnel vision for the bird, this is good tunnel vision btw. I see nothing else, even when the barrel of the gun aligns with the bird, it's a blur at best, I certainly do not see the sight ever...

(I think the site reappearing happens because my concentration has gone entirely onto the bird and I look for where my site is before bringing the gun down. I thought shooting this way helped with follow through.)

I think the sight is only useful when you mount the gun, you can use it to check for consistent mount each time, but after that, it's useless. In my opinion, on a trap gun, it shouldn't even be called a sight, it leads to confusion especially for the newer shooters, and even more so if these new shooters have a background in rifle shooting with iron sights.

(This is exactly the way I learned to shoot. I checked gun mount using the two beads then looked where I expected the bird and called. Now I am keeping the eye in contact with the bead and looking for the target. To quote Daro's book "...the eye must stay in contact with the barrel-bead with a steady look for the target...". Another quote "...If you make the shot at the target with only the eye, you will be missing more than you should...". So, as you can see, the concern is preserving the barrel-bead-bird relationship and there is a clear difference between what is being taught and conventional wisdom. It is too early for me to know whether shooting this way is better, of course, but I am trying it and liking it so far, I seem a bit more solid on the target and a bit less affected by other things. I wouldn't have believed it either, in case you are wondering. Another quote just to end up "...You must see the barrel-bead without looking directly at it during the set-up and call." So, I think Daro is aware of the concerns you are expressing and trying to account for them.)

Now if you just see the sight as a blur as it reappears, that's GOOD. But if when the sight "reappears" as you said, and it's clear, then at that instance, you are not focused on the bird but the sight, and that's BAD. Because this could be what I described earlier as focusing back and forth between the sight and the bird.

(Right now the sight can stay a bit present when I shoot or disappear. It is blurry like you say. It doesn't worry me when it disappears, as I am concentrating on the bird by this time. At least that is the way I think things are going. The time I miss is when I am only focussed on the bead or strongly focussed on it. I'm pretty sure of this. )

Now all this, is only relevent if you are like me a "swing through" shooter. If you are one of the rare breeds, that can lead-stop-shoot and break the target, then all the power to you and what I have said goes out the window completely.
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I (try) to shoot sustained lead in skeet. But I end up swinging through the bird whenever I am late, especially at station 2 high house. I almost always end up chasing the bird in trap, though the distance is shrinking, which I kind of see as swing through. The whole idea of swing through is interesting to me and I'm thinking of practicing it in skeet just to see what happens. George Digweed shoots swing through on his instructional video (I just watched it.) and he makes the approach pretty clear. Obviously he is very effective with it. Bender had some arguments against it in his fundamentals video, which is why I ended up trying sustained lead.

Thanks for your comments Gasanwu. Fred
 
Gasanwu,
I think I experience your good tunnel quite a bit. It happens when my mind is on the target and when I get into a grove. My sights are lined up but I do not think about them much. I see the sights and the barrel and even my left hand holding the fore stock, but all that is in the peripheral. It feels like I am looking through everything, sights gun and all but looking at only the target. When I am in that tunnel, life is good and straights are common and expected because targets look larger and slower.
 
Covey Ridge said:
Gasanwu,
I think I experience your good tunnel quite a bit. It happens when my mind is on the target and when I get into a grove. My sights are lined up but I do not think about them much. I see the sights and the barrel and even my left hand holding the fore stock, but all that is in the peripheral. It feels like I am looking through everything, sights gun and all but looking at only the target. When I am in that tunnel, life is good and straights are common and expected because targets look larger and slower.
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Yes, tunnel vision on the bird is good indeed. I sometimes think back after a round of trap and do remember seeing the barrel and the sight, but it's all a blur like a vague dream I had, but when I recall the bird, it's imagine is still sharp and vivid, and the bits and pieces are all so very clear.:sniper: I think that's what you call "being in the zone" ;)
 
I think we are missing the point on what Daro is doing. I believe he is trying to eliminate the 3 or 4 errors he will make over 400 or 500 birds. The logic might go like this: If the shot misses it is because the gun isn't pointing where you are looking when you are looking at the bird. The gun shoots where the bead is, providing you have set it up correctly. The solution then is to ensure that the eye-bead-bird relationship is preserved. So, teach yourself to preserve this relationship while looking at the bird and, when you miss, or your shots go off dead center, return to making sure this relationship is preserved. I believe Daro was trying to help us eliminate these errors early by cluing us in and getting us used to shooting this way.
 
BCFred said:
I think we are missing the point on what Daro is doing. I believe he is trying to eliminate the 3 or 4 errors he will make over 400 or 500 birds. The logic might go like this: If the shot misses it is because the gun isn't pointing where you are looking when you are looking at the bird. The gun shoots where the bead is, providing you have set it up correctly. The solution then is to ensure that the eye-bead-bird relationship is preserved. So, teach yourself to preserve this relationship while looking at the bird and, when you miss, or your shots go off dead center, return to making sure this relationship is preserved. I believe Daro was trying to help us eliminate these errors early by cluing us in and getting us used to shooting this way.
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Strictly from Trap shooting point of view. I think the "tunnel vision on the bird" theory is largely in agreement with most of what Daro is saying. Although preserving the eye-bead-bird relationship, is something I cannot agree with. The word "preserving" means that from the moment you call for the bird until you either break or lose the bird, the relationship doesn't change.

Again strictly from trap shooting point of view, that simply cannot be true. Here's a break down on what happens to your eye-bead-bird relationship when you shoot trap (observed over and over again in pros):

1. With the gun mounted you look ahead for the bird (or through the bead as Daro would say, so eye-bead relationship is bead is visible in the peripheral vision so (blur)

2. You call the bird and the motion of the bird gets registered by your eyes. Your eyes starts to trace down and focus on the bird, but your body have NOT started moving yet. Simple biology and physics here. Biology: when the eyes see the bird, it has to send information to the brain and the brain has to send order to your muscle to move, this takes time. Physics: things that are stationary wants to stay stationary until a force is applied to it, so your muscles have to accelerate the gun from 0km/hr to #km/hr to start moving, this takes time. Eye-bead-bird relationship is eyes see the bird clearly, but the bead is left behind, nowhere to be found (you described this as the bead disappears, which is fine)

3. Ideally your eyes continue track the bird clearly, and your body reacts to the moving bird, and the fixed block of head, gun, and upper torso moves as a whole unit, as if PULLED by the eyes, in the direction of the bird. At some point in this stage, you regain the blurry vision of the sight (which you mentioned as it reappearing), because the body is catching up to where your eye is looking

4. Still looking at the bird clearly, you see the blurry sight align with the bird, maybe with some lead, and you pull the trigger, while still swinging. At this point you either see a broken bird or still flying bird, but you should loose sight of your bead again, because you are still looking at the bird and the gun has "swept through" the bird.

As you can see, the eye-bead-bird relationship is a ever changing relationship. What is perserved is the eye-bird relationship, once you see the bird, do not look at anything else. The only other thing perserved, should be your head, gun, shoulder relationship as they should be moving as if they are one.

Assumptions: 1. You shoot both eyes open, 2. You are a swing through shooter.

Most people know that the head is supposed to be fixed on the gun, but forget that the shoulder needs to be fixed to the gun as well, the ability to do that, is dependent on the stance before calling the bird, but that's another topic I won't go into here.

But then again, maybe when Daro said perserve eye-bead-bird relationship he meant what I just said, what do I know;) I've said it before and I will say it again, there is NO WRONG WAY, if you can do the wrong way CONSISTENTLY, then it can work for you.

Cheers.
 
I've spent some time reading what you wrote Gasanmu and am not sure I agree with all of it. Daro said "...never look at the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area...". We only played with moving to the streak at the end of the workshop when we had gotten a bit quicker and had started preserving the bead-barrel-rib relationship. So, your eye doesn't go away from the bead when looking for the bird. The idea is to move your eyes and the bead together. It is true that the bird can get away and one moves after it, but what we were instructed to do is get the bead onto the bird. That is, we are moving the bead toward the bird by keeping it present while looking at the bird. It does take time to move the body, as you say, and this may well be why speed was emphasized in the workshop as well as various kinds of stances and movements and so on. It also may be why Daro is very finicky about the kinds of releases he gets too. I don't know. He does attribute misses to poor (slow) releases. One thing I said before that didn't get across accurately was that, speaking for myself, when the bead disappears while I'm moving to the bird I often still hit it. I think that probably means the movement has made a correct relationship between the bead and the bird. I 'don't' see the bead again until 'after' I have shot whether I hit or miss. (If I think about having lost the site and look for it I will miss.) In fact, I automatically look to see where the bead is 'after' I've shot to get some idea of what the gun's relationship to the bird was. I thought this would ensure that I followed through well enough as well as giving me some idea about why I hit or missed.
 
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