Daro Handy Trap Workshop

I think we are missing the point on what Daro is doing. I believe he is trying to eliminate the 3 or 4 errors he will make over 400 or 500 birds. The logic might go like this: If the shot misses it is because the gun isn't pointing where you are looking when you are looking at the bird. The gun shoots where the bead is, providing you have set it up correctly. The solution then is to ensure that the eye-bead-bird relationship is preserved. So, teach yourself to preserve this relationship while looking at the bird and, when you miss, or your shots go off dead center, return to making sure this relationship is preserved. I believe Daro was trying to help us eliminate these errors early by cluing us in and getting us used to shooting this way.

I have always tried to follow head on the stock and eye on the rock relationship. It's more of an eye stock bird relationship. I know that if I allow my sights to be anymore than just in my peripheral I will get a clear view of the target as it leaves un broken:(
 
You sure he said "...never look at the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area..." and not "...never look FOR the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area..."?

This depends on how high you hold the gun before you call the bird. Trap is a game of minimal movement, ideally with minimal vertical movement and mostly horizontal movement. Some people hold the gun too high in an attempt to minimize the vertical movement, but doing this makes the target acquisition slower, and then sometimes people lift their head to look for the bird, which is very bad.

1-3 ft above the house sounds about right, depends on how people perceive height at a distance I guess.

As regarding to "So, your eye doesn't go away from the bead when looking for the bird." and "It is true that the bird can get away and one moves after it, but what we were instructed to do is get the bead onto the bird. That is, we are moving the bead toward the bird by keeping it present while looking at the bird." With all due respect, to me the first sentence seems to contradict the last one. How would one move the bead towards the bird while looking at the bird and NOT lose sight of the bead?

Picture this scenario: you are on the 1st station, you mount the gun and call for the bird, you get a extreme left flying bird. The instance your eye picks up the bird and locks on to the bird, you can bet you've lost sight of the bead, the bead won't even be in your peripheral vision, it's gone, left behind. Now this doesn't mean you've moved your head, your head stays on the gun, but your eyes have turned to the left in their socket as opposed to the starting position, where they were looking ahead.

Doesn't matter how quick you react, this step ALWAYS takes place. Now, after your body started to react, and you've accelerated your gun from motionless to a steady swing, then you will be able to look at the bird while having the bead in your peripheral vision, because the gun has started to catch up somewhat to the bird.

It is possible of course to have the peripheral vision of the bead from when the bird is launched to until the bird is broken or otherwise, it is possible WHEN you get a bird that is launched in an angle that is not to the extreme left or right. Say a bird that's going straight away from you, then yeah, you can pretty much maintain the eyes, bead, bird relationship, in any other scenario the bead will be 1st behind the bird and then catch up and over take the bird.

One last thing, when he said "The idea is to move your eyes and the bead together. " I'm almost positive he meant "The idea is to move your HEAD and the bead together.";)



I've spent some time reading what you wrote Gasanmu and am not sure I agree with all of it. Daro said "...never look at the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area...". We only played with moving to the streak at the end of the workshop when we had gotten a bit quicker and had started preserving the bead-barrel-rib relationship. So, your eye doesn't go away from the bead when looking for the bird. The idea is to move your eyes and the bead together. It is true that the bird can get away and one moves after it, but what we were instructed to do is get the bead onto the bird. That is, we are moving the bead toward the bird by keeping it present while looking at the bird. It does take time to move the body, as you say, and this may well be why speed was emphasized in the workshop as well as various kinds of stances and movements and so on. It also may be why Daro is very finicky about the kinds of releases he gets too. I don't know. He does attribute misses to poor (slow) releases. One thing I said before that didn't get across accurately was that, speaking for myself, when the bead disappears while I'm moving to the bird I often still hit it. I think that probably means the movement has made a correct relationship between the bead and the bird. I 'don't' see the bead again until 'after' I have shot whether I hit or miss. (If I think about having lost the site and look for it I will miss.) In fact, I automatically look to see where the bead is 'after' I've shot to get some idea of what the gun's relationship to the bird was. I thought this would ensure that I followed through well enough as well as giving me some idea about why I hit or missed.
 
Well Gasanwu and CR, there is always the time in a discussion when it comes down to actually measuring what a person is doing. Self-report can be notouriously inaccurate. Maybe we have reached this time on this issue. I'm sure you will agree that there is always a question of what we think we are doing and what we are actually doing. Until someone actually goes out and measures it we don't really know. Personally, I have found this discussion very useful and interesting. But I'm at that early stage where I am trying something new and until I shoot more I'm not sure how far the method is going to take me (and how far I'm going to mislead others by talking to them about it, or how much I'm going to misrepresent Daro for that matter). I have collected some quotes from page 49 in Daro's book just to keep things in perspective and to kind of summarize his position: "...The style of shooting that I developed and teach is completely opposite to the current popular belief on how to shoot a moving target, which is to make the target our dominant focus point. That theory, like many old theories, is completely wrong and in reverse order." Dealing with slumps: "...looking harder for the target will only make the problem worse because it pulls the eye further from the barrel and the bead and you shoot the target with only the eye. The target needs to be shot with the eye, the barrel-bead and the target - in that order." "Whenever your shooting is getting out of control and the lost targets are piling up, come back and find the front bead a little better...". Best wishes to you both. Fred
 
I see now why the disagreement from before. Like I said before, there's no wrong way, just use whatever works best for you.

Practice LOTS and good luck!

Cheers.
 
"...The style of shooting that I developed and teach is completely opposite to the current popular belief on how to shoot a moving target, which is to make the target our dominant focus point. That theory, like many old theories, is completely wrong and in reverse order."

Obviously Mr. Handy teaches a method that works for him and that he can teach to students. I am not sure if his methods actually measures out better than the ones he call the old theory? Do his student actually become better shooters than those who follow the so called reverse order? I do not know what he bases his statement that the other method is wrong and in reverse order? I supect that individual brain eye perception etc. is different between individuals. Some of us are one eyed while others are two eyed shooters. Some of us claim to be able to see right through our guns to the target and some can not see past the sight. Some measure lead at the muzzle and some at the target and some claim to feel the correct lead. on and on. I have been around long enough that I sort of agree with Gasanwu and say there is no wrong. All of this is interesting discussion and next time at the range I may play around with my sights a bit,, but at my age my brain may be hard wired.
Fred, thanks for posting.
 
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Fred,
I went to the range today PM and in spite of the weather being nice, was all by myself. After a few round this thread came to mind. Since there was no witnesses and more important no one to laugh I tried a couple rounds. Not knowing exactly what Mr. Handy taught I just tried to be consciously aware of my sights from before I called for the target til after the target broke. Yes the target did break and did not have much difficulty picking up the target. It felt a little weird being aware of the bead at the time of the break, and I felt like I was committing some type of shotgunning sin, but the targets kept breaking. Well not all the targets! I missed two that round and one the next. What I did like is that I started to adapt quite easy and my breaks were very good. I know this is not very scientific and at this point I am not convinced, but I will try it again.
 
Fred,
I went to the range today PM and in spite of the weather being nice, was all by myself. After a few round this thread came to mind. Since there was no witnesses and more important no one to laugh I tried a couple rounds. Not knowing exactly what Mr. Handy taught I just tried to be consciously aware of my sights from before I called for the target til after the target broke. Yes the target did break and did not have much difficulty picking up the target. It felt a little weird being aware of the bead at the time of the break, and I felt like I was committing some type of shotgunning sin, but the targets kept breaking. Well not all the targets! I missed two that round and one the next. What I did like is that I started to adapt quite easy and my breaks were very good. I know this is not very scientific and at this point I am not convinced, but I will try it again.

It's incredible how similar your experience is to mine with this idea CR, including the guilty feeling I was doing something wrong lol. One of the first things I noticed too was that my hits are more centered (this has to be good right). This was commented on by my wife, who usually pulls targets for us, as well as by another shooter. I'm pretty sure now that one way I miss when using the method is to fall in love with the bead too much. So far, it seems really important to look through the bead not at it. Would be grateful if you would describe any more thoughts that emerge as you experiment with the method. I'm starting to appreciate just how subtle this sport really is. It is turning out to be a process of concentration and error elimination and it's incredible how little you have to screw up to miss. It's like a paradox, because it feels like there is quite a bit of slop in how close you have to be to hit too. ARRRRGGGGHHH:confused:
 
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