Dating a Winchester P-1914

Drachenblut

Drachenblut

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
91   0   1
Location
Smithers, B.C.
Hello,

I have just bought a Winchester P-1914 in .303, and am interested in tracking the serial number and finding out it's date of manufacture. What sorts of markings should I look for? Any good websites on markings and meanings for this rifle?
 
It will be 1915, '16 or very early '17. Look for the barrel date on the left-hand side of the chamber; that will give you an idea at least.

The P.-'14 originally was made as the first Mark of its type; this later was modded to a Mark plus a Star. The Star was stamped on the top of the chamber on the conversions that I have seen. There are still a FEW out there that have not been converted; ran into one a couple of years ago, couldn't afford it. I do have a very early Winchester from the second pre-production lot: 3-digit number.

Tooling for these took quite a while, three big plants needing to be tooled up, only one plant making all the tools. Then there were seemingly-endless Board of Ordnance approvals and tests and so forth, just to see if the Colonials could actually make a rifle to BRITISH specifications. It was almost as if they really didn't want the rifles. If they had just given Winchester and Remington the go-ahead, delivery could have started much earlier.

This seems to be a fig-newton of the bureaucratic mind or something: so long as OUR pensions are intact, who really gives half a fig whether the troopies need rifles or not?
 
Don't know on P-'14s, but on the M-1917 they cranked out close to half a million in 21 months, and that included retooling time. They were working hard.

I think Winchester production on the P-'14 was around a quarter of a million, but they were also making 95s for Russia at the same time and Gawd-alone-knows-what-else for anybody with a ruble, franc or gold sovereign. I think it likely that they were delivering about 10,000 P-'14s a month. All Madis says in his little pocket guide is that they were built from 1915 through to 1917 and that deliveries passed 245,000.

Hope this helps a bit, anyway.

Enjoy the toy; they can be amazingly accurate and they are as reliable and tough as a rock. Likely the best Service rifle of the Great War, when all is taken into cnsideration (including the sights).
 
smellie said:
Enjoy the toy; they can be amazingly accurate and they are as reliable and tough as a rock. Likely the best Service rifle of the Great War, when all is taken into cnsideration (including the sights).
Click to expand...

X2, and it's a shame they didn't keep making them for longer then they did.
 
smellie said:
Don't know on P-'14s, but on the M-1917 they cranked out close to half a million in 21 months, and that included retooling time. They were working hard.

I think Winchester production on the P-'14 was around a quarter of a million, but they were also making 95s for Russia at the same time and Gawd-alone-knows-what-else for anybody with a ruble, franc or gold sovereign. I think it likely that they were delivering about 10,000 P-'14s a month. All Madis says in his little pocket guide is that they were built from 1915 through to 1917 and that deliveries passed 245,000.

Hope this helps a bit, anyway.

Enjoy the toy; they can be amazingly accurate and they are as reliable and tough as a rock. Likely the best Service rifle of the Great War, when all is taken into cnsideration (including the sights).
Click to expand...

The P14 is a very under rated rifle...and never got the due it deserved..the SMLE always got the limelight..inspite of it being more accurate..and very tough as you mentioned.

I think the troopies like the shorter lenghth of the SMLE...but loved the great aperature sight on the P14.

I haven't seen many photo's of Brtish troops...other than snipers carrying the P14....lots of photo's of U.S troopies with the Model 1917.
 
Very interesting. If I post up the serial number, could somone perhaps help me approximate the date it was made (Month at least, perhaps even week?) I wonder if Winchester has the records of production still for these rifles, after all they were never invaded, attacked or would have had reason to destroy the files, as I am sure the Central Powers did not have a large spy network in America, security could be a little lax?
 
The P14 was developed just prior to WW1 to replace the SMLE because of shortcomings of the earlier rifle. The P14 was actually designed around a rimless .276 ctg to replace the .303. It was basically a more modern Mauser-type rifle with an updated high velocity ctg. No doubt the Brit ordnance planners were favourably impressed by the Mauser rifles and 7x57 round that the Boers had used so effectively against them in S. Africa.

The UK needed more rifles in a hurry to keep up with the demands of the trenches. It was not feasible to convert to the newer .276 ctg in the middle of a war, nor did the Brits have the tooling or plants to produce the P14. The solution was to re-work the rifle for the .303 round and to go to American industry which had the capacity to tool up and produce large quantities of the rifle in minimum time.

The warm P14 production base was advantageous for the US Army in gearing up for WW1 as the output of the 2 US Government Arsenals was not sufficient to produce the required numbers of Model 1903 Springfields. The same 3 factories that produced the P14s on the british contracts then proceded to turn out several million Model 1917 rifles for the US in .30-06. As it turned out the majority of US troops in France were armed with the Model 1917, rather than the M1903.
The US Army was very pleased with the M1917 as a fighting rifle (the sighting system was judged superior to the M1903) and because of the large stocks on hand, serious consideration was given to adopting the M1917 as the standard US service rifle post WW1. The fact that the US arsenals still had the tooling for the M1903 plus the peacetime target shooter's preference for the M1903 sights tipped the balance infavor of the M1903.

As far as the P14 in British service was concerned, the huge stocks of SMLEs on hand as well as the availability of SMLE plants and tooling argued for retaining the SMLE in favor of the P14 as the standard rifle after WW1. Too bad because on balance the P14/M1917 was a superior service rifle than both the SMLE and the M1903 Springfield. As it turned out these fine rifles spent a couple of decades mouldering in reserve stocks and were then used as training rifles or supplied to allied nations, including India, China, France, and Canada, during WW2.
 
There is some info here under Part Three. However, production records for Pattern 14 rifles have long since been destroyed. http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/main.htm
"...The same 3 factories..." Two Remington plants and one Winchester plant.
"...from 1915 through to 1917 and that deliveries passed 245,000..." January, 1916 to April, 1917. 1.2 million rifles, total, from both companies.
 
Yes, in a way it was more than a bit silly: the finest battle rifle in the world, sitting in armouries and the oil in them turning into grease.

Two-thirds of all Yanks fought the Great War with the M-1917.

The P-'14 as originally conceived could be converted to the wonderful high-velocity .276 round quite easily. It was planned to do this after the War, but budgetary restraints prevented it. All that would have been required would have been to replace that silly sixpence internal magazine box and the rear sight; the bolt-face already was the right size.

But it did do one thing: it got North America thinking about bolt-actions. Remington took advantage of this after the War and brought out the Model 30S, which is a wonderful rifle: pure M-1917 with a 4-groove Remington barrel. A friend has one and we have shot it many times. Right now it is sporting an M-1917 barrel (because he could get a new one, diamond-lapped, for very little) but he still has the unmarred Remington barrel as well. The thing was a $60 rifle when it was made, but right now is sporting $1500 worth of glass.... and it NEEDS it. Thing is just scary accurate. Built in 1926: that was a very good year, methinks.

Winchester brought out their Model 54, which was the prototype for the Model 70, as a direct competitor to the Model 30. Put the bolts from an M-1917, a Model 30S, a Model 54 and a Model 70 on the table at the ame time and you can REALLY see the relationship.

The P-'14/M-1917 is the foundation of the modern North American hunting rifle.... and no-one can possibly deny it.
 
Well, honestly, I'm very happy with her. A keeper for sure. The bore looks good too, only 2-3 tiny pits, bright rifling. I love how LONG the bolt is, and the #### on close is just brilliant. It really helps if you have a stuck/tight case, I know the Mausers are rugged, but the #### on open when you have a muddy/stuck case is really a pain if you are not the Hulk.

Thanks for all your help, can anyone guestimate the month of production?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom