Daughter and/or son holding second firearm while I small game hunt?

[ironsighter]

It is the case. More accurately, they are required to have previously passed the CFSC.
In Ontario you need either an H1 or an H2 card in order to hunt (or if under 15 years old, an A1 or A2 apprentice card). An H1 or an A1 allows you to hunt with anything while an H2 or an A2 allows you to hunt with anything except guns. In order to get an H1 or an A1 card you need proof of passing the Canadian Firearms Safety Course.
Despite the fact that the op said his kids wouldn't be shooting anything and would only be carrying a spare gun, in the eyes of the CO if you are carrying a gun while involved in hunting then that is hunting...seems silly in the OP's situation but I guess otherwise you would get unlicenced hunters out there claiming, "I'm only carrying this gun for my buddy Joe who has a hunting licence".

This is how I would interpret the advice the CO has given the OP and explains why people without a pal can legally shoot under supervision at a range or plinking in the back forty but cannot be in possession of a firearm while hunting in Ontario.

Makes total sense to me now, except for one thing; an A1 holder does not have a firearms licence, despite having passed the CFSC.

So this quote from the ministry still doesn't jive: "An unlicensed person is not allowed to carry a firearm because they must be in possession of a gun licence to be able to be in possession of a firearm."

I understand that the OP's case is cut and dry, because his kids have neither a gun licence, nor a hunting licence, but the "reasoning" by the ministry (as quoted) is not correct - because an A1 hunter without a PAL can hunt with a gun.

Just in case anyone is interested, in BC there is a very similar firearms training requirement that is included in the CORE training (which must be passed in order to get a hunting licence). It is technically not a full CFSC but it covers all the same content. I know, because I did my hunter training course and CFSC in Ontario before I moved out to BC, but I have sat through the BC CORE with my wife and daughters. The actual training is basically the same.

I guess the BC perspective is; why make someone do the full CFSC if they aren't even old enough to apply for a PAL? Just include the same basic firearms training and testing in the hunting course and send them on their way. There is no A2 equivalent in BC. I guess they figure anyone who hunts should have some firearms knowledge whether they intend to use a gun or not.

 

[Runningfool]

Ironsighter you touch on a peculiar thing - the fact that an H1 or A1 licence holder only has to have passed the CFSC, they do not require a pal. This was discussed at length in the legalize section here and it turns out there are some people, for reasons that I don't quite understand, who take the CFSC but never apply for their pal.

My youngest daughter is a good example - she just took her CFSC this year and then her OHEP (Ontario Hunter Education Program). I didn't have to wait until she received her PAL before she could apply for her A1 licence, all I had to do was show proof that she had passed the CFSC.

You can take the CFSC as early as 12 years old or earlier if you get permission from the CFO. I guess the powers that be in Ontario don't think anyone younger than 12 should hunt with a gun but that is another kettle of fish entirely!

I think the ministry's reply that the child must have a firearms licence was just easier to say than they must have proof of passing the CFSC (such as a pal or test results or a letter from the CFSC instructor) or is of aboriginal descent, etc. even though that is what the hunting regulations state.

 

[ironsighter]

Runningfool,

As muddy as it might seem to others. I see this all quite clearly now. Thanks for participating in this discussion to a clear conclusion!

 

[Zen_Seeker]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I understood the stand the MNRF was pointing to but thought it might be wrong or misleading. A few here have cleared that up and seem to be in agreement. As I noted it's probably because many in the past have abused the "I'm not hunting, just holding it for my buddy" line. Seems a bit like the Ruger 10/25 BS but I don't want to be the one who fights this battle.

It's sad really. This means that the kids need to pay for everything up front, take all the courses, before they can even help out in the smallest of ways. At least they can still walk with me and enjoy some time in the woods. Who knows, it might be enough to get at least one of them into the sport and interest them further.

This thread can be closed. It was helpful and I got the answers I needed.

 

[Suther]

You have to understand that there are firearms regulations (federal) and then there are hunting regulations (provincial). If you are only "shooting" or at a "gun range" then you do not need to worry about being in compliance with provincial hunting regs. If you are hunting then you need to be in compliance with both the federal gun laws and the provincial hunting regulations.

Here is an easy example to illustrate this: gun laws allow for 5 rounds in a semi shotgun but hunting regs only allow 3 rounds for hunting birds. Guys on the range with 5 rounds in their semi-auto shotgun aren't breaking any rules but if they want to take that same gun duck hunting, they need to plug the magazine tube in order to be in compliance with the hunting regs.

If Ontario hunting regulations say that you need to have a pal in order to carry a gun while participating in a hunt, then in Ontario that is what you have to do. It really doesn't matter what hunters in BC can do because hunting regs are provincial.

The problem with your explanation is the fact that they specifically state the possession of a gun is covered under federal law. They do not say anything about the possession of the firearm contravening provincial hunting regs. To quote them, "This is federal regulations and not provincial regulations."

So whatever is legal here in BC is also legal over there in Ontario, at least in respect to possession of a firearm. (Which they clearly dont know ####-all about.)

Thanks to all for the feedback. I understood the stand the MNRF was pointing to but thought it might be wrong or misleading. A few here have cleared that up and seem to be in agreement. As I noted it's probably because many in the past have abused the "I'm not hunting, just holding it for my buddy" line. Seems a bit like the Ruger 10/25 BS but I don't want to be the one who fights this battle.

It's sad really. This means that the kids need to pay for everything up front, take all the courses, before they can even help out in the smallest of ways. At least they can still walk with me and enjoy some time in the woods. Who knows, it might be enough to get at least one of them into the sport and interest them further.

This thread can be closed. It was helpful and I got the answers I needed.

In BC, there are youth hunting licenses so you can take a kid under 18 with you without them taking their CORE (hunter training). There is also an initiation license that you can only get once, but it allows you to hunt without your CORE as long as you are supervised by an experienced hunter. In these cases, kills go towards the supervisors tags/limits, but it bypasses the requirement for CORE training if you want to take someone out to experience hunting and see if its for them or not.

Maybe Ontario has something similar that your kids could use?

 

[Runningfool]

The problem with your explanation is the fact that they specifically state the possession of a gun is covered under federal law. They do not say anything about the possession of the firearm contravening provincial hunting regs. To quote them, "This is federal regulations and not provincial regulations."

You are correct, they said federal regulations which is wrong, they should have said provincial hunting regulations. Regardless of that person's choice of words, the net result for the OP is the same.

In BC, there are youth hunting licenses so you can take a kid under 18 with you without them taking their CORE (hunter training). There is also an initiation license that you can only get once, but it allows you to hunt without your CORE as long as you are supervised by an experienced hunter. Maybe Ontario has something similar that your kids could use?

They do not. As I mentioned, they have an apprentice hunter program that requires either an A1 or an A2 licence, both require taking the OHEP and one requires taking and passing the CFSC as well.