DD or BCM LPK

[sky52]

Just going to point out another flaw here. Every manufacturer encounters tolerance stacking, period.
Just to explain, let's say BCM allows tolerance of .01" (just for arguements sake) on all their various parts. If the trigger pins supplied are .01" larger than milspec standard, and your trigger pin holes are manufactured .01" smaller, both parts are within the manufacturers set tolerances, but combined you now have .02" of excess material which is known as tolerance stacking.

This exists in everything from NEA manufactured firearms parts to NASA aerospace engineered parts on the ISS (although I'm sure one has a few more 0's)

Agree. Going off on the opposite perspective. How can 1 be so sure that 1 specific set if lpk has less "tolenrence stacking" than the next set coming off the assembly line!?

Come on guys. Half of you dont even measure to see if your lowers are within spec or not. We are just a bunch of potatoe heads flinging bull excrement around behind the comfort of our keyboard

 

[dangertree]

Agree. Going off on the opposite perspective. How can 1 be so sure that 1 specific set if lpk has less "tolenrence stacking" than the next set coming off the assembly line!?

Come on guys. Half of you dont even measure to see if your lowers are within spec or not. We are just a bunch of potatoe heads flinging bull excrement around behind the comfort of our keyboard

Tolerance stacking is the sum of variance from 'dead nuts on' between parts. Buy a quality LPK from a quality manufacturer and you will get a good kit. That said, you can pay more for the same parts depending on how much markup a company places on its parts (this is not a rifle discussion but a marketing discussion about people pay more and assuming their parts are better because they spent more, there is a very sharp line of diminishing return here). Most of the small parts from the LPK do come from a handful of manufacturers, none of which are previously named in this thread. What differentiates is the demand that the 'brand' company places on dimensions being correct and how ready they are to reject out-of-spec or loose spec parts.

What I can say is that sell both Stag Arms (CMT) and ALG (Geissele) LPKs both of which have proven 100% trouble free in many hundreds sold in this country. CMT finishes many of the parts themselves and sells to many other manufacturers. ALG (Geissele) outsources most mil-spec LPK parts, from the finest military suppliers and are mad for correct dimensions and quality, as expected from GA, and then offers them at reasonable price branded as ALG.

We get offered cheap parts from unknown names regularly. We don't sell them, never have. We also won't install them for customers (without a surcharge) anymore, as hand finishing parts to fit is a total waste of time and energy, and costs more in labour than the difference between buying a quality LPK in the first place. Cheap no-name parts often have heat treating/hardness or dimensional issues, or crap springs. We also don't sell a couple of other brands who while they use good parts, mark up their kits beyond the same parts from the suppliers we do offer, giving less value.

 

[84wh1]

so now I did the math and it looks like sourcing an ALG LPK (66$) plus an ALG ACT (89$) and a magpul MOE+ (34$) all from arms east equals the exact same amount of money as the BCM LPK (189$) from another retailer LOL.......so now I guess my newest question is

BCM PNT trigger or ALG ACT trigger?????

 

[Sinasta]

Cant fix stupid and dont argue with a bag of wet @$$hole , he will just drag you down to his level and kick your @$$ with experience. Funny enough, i cant fathom how a bag of wet a$$hole can retain memories and experience

You can call me an @sshole because I called you out for being wrong. And a dealer here who probably sells the most triggers in Canada telling you that you're wrong. So maybe you're the @sshole.

 

[Sinasta]

Absolutely correct, either will serve you well.



No they are not all the same. Some companies actually care about specs tolerances and materials when they source their fire control parts. DD, Colt, BCM, LMT, and some other well known brands use milspec parts from REPUTABLE sources. Hobby guns and import junk do not.. A milspec trigger is a known entity whereas some of the aftermarket triggers are poorly designed or simply not worth the coin. If reliability is your concern then stick with milspec or at least stick with a non adjustable trigger.



Quality brands source their parts from the same reputable suppliers.



Me experience as well with both triggers, not enough difference to notice.


Liar or not your experience doesn't match the components and data involved. BCM doesn't tolerance stack or offer sub par junk like NEA or others.



Again, LPK's are not all the same, in fact far from it. Use quality parts from a known reputable brand or risk the consequences of out of spec parts. As for triggers, a 2 stage trigger is great for precision work but is not ideal for action shooting or rapid firing.

And you too are proven wrong in not just my example but your example of 2 stage triggers not being used for action or for rapid firing.

Next.

 

[84wh1]

I ended up ordering a ALG LPK plus an ALG ACT trigger, Magpul MOE + and Stag receiver extention from Arms East. Ordering from one retailer ended up giving me the best price, not to mention great service. Thanks Arms East!

 

[Waynetheman]

If I hadn't found the bcm for the price I did I would have done the same. Good luck on your build.

 

[blaxsun]

Glad to see that LPKs are starting to move away from the standard A2 grips that almost everyone threw away...

 

[JayCarver]

I just put in a BCM kit that I got on sale at Brownells. The trigger is quite good actually for the price, quite a bit of take up but no grit at all and a reasonable pull weight. I like the BCM grips anyways so IMO this kit is worth the extra over a standard kit, never tried the ALG trigger so I can't help with that.

 

[rkm456]

I ended up ordering a ALG LPK plus an ALG ACT trigger, Magpul MOE + and Stag receiver extention from Arms East. Ordering from one retailer ended up giving me the best price, not to mention great service. Thanks Arms East!

I've only had one dealing with Arms East but I really can't say enough about how awesome they were. Many of the vendors here are "will ship in 1-3 business days" Arms East had my order in my hands within 36 hours of placing it if memory serves. That includes them emailing me to ask me how I wanted it shipped.

 

[Dietz]

Flip a coin, really.

 

[rkm456]

Most LPKs are comparable (just stay away from the Chinese crap). If you plan to upgrade the trigger, pins and selectors just go with the cheapest LPK. Otherwise, whatever offers you the best deal in terms of upgraded triggers and non-A2 grips is your best bet.

I meant it literally. Like some other AR parts, there are a few OEM's that make them for a host of manufacturers.

 

[Kidd X]

Most (hence my comment) of the main AR15 manufacturers use similar quality components in their LPKs. Geissele (and others) make a lot of 2-stage triggers for competition, so this is news to me...

No they don't. They either use proper milspec parts or they use whatever they can source. Very very few companies build true milspec guns, the rest are hobby guns. Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch just calm down and keep reading. Milspec isn't the be all to end all of AR rifles. Milspec is simply a KNOWN specification for the materails used, their tolerances, and the manufacturing processes. Milspec is a baseline that can actually be observed or verified. Now, with most companies failing to even use the proper barrel steel let alone the finer details like taper pins on the FSB/gas block, parkerizing UNDER the gas block, proper staking of the gas key and receiver extension nut etc etc. It's not hard to believe that said companies are cutting corners all along the way. Saving $4 per parts kit by going with vendor 'B' over vendor 'A' equals a lot of coin over time. This is at the risk of buying out of spec parts that could have been made with incorrect materials, dimensions, processes or all of the above. This same principle plays into tolerance stacking. Yes, everyone tolerance stacks, my statement otherwise was incorrect and/or misleading. What quality companies do is remain within PROPER tolerance specs and rejects parts that approach or sit at max values. The opposite is done by companies looking to reduce costs and maximize margins.

I will agree with you on this, sometimes I get a little ahead of myself and just assume since the comparison was between bcm and DD that we were all on the same page as per only using quality, reputable manufacturers. I never have, nor ever will condone the use of sub par equipment.




This however I will strongly disagree with you on, most if not every competition, rapid or action shooter I have ever met or even witnessed on the interwebs is using a 2 stage trigger.
I myself prefer the geissele SD-C and Geissele Super T 2 stage triggers in my 2 go-to rifles.

In fact, I have a feeling you've mixed this up as most high precision bolt guns I've ever used have a very light single stage trigger.

First off, I missed the implied reference that the discussion was about DD and/or BCM and not LPK's in general and I agree that quality parts are an absolute must and either brand is a fine choice.

As for triggers I stand by my statement. A 2 stage trigger in a precision gun allows you to take up the slack and hold at "the wall" with little doubt as to where said "wall" is. A single stage offers no feedback other than the break. For the precision shooter who has the time(and frankly needs the time to compute the shot) the 2 stage is excellent. I'm not saying a single stage trigger is bad but it offers less tactile feedback prior to the break of the shot. Now the action shooter doesn't have the time nor does he need the most accurate shot the majority of the time. Having a 2 stage trigger in such an environment lends itself to slapping the trigger, snatching the full pull(both stages) in a single go. Slapping the trigger helps no one and a 2 stage trigger is easy to slap under time/stress constraints. Not one guy I compete with uses a two stage.

Just going to point out another flaw here. Every manufacturer encounters tolerance stacking, period.
Just to explain, let's say BCM allows tolerance of .01" (just for arguements sake) on all their various parts. If the trigger pins supplied are .01" larger than milspec standard, and your trigger pin holes are manufactured .01" smaller, both parts are within the manufacturers set tolerances, but combined you now have .02" of excess material which is known as tolerance stacking.

This exists in everything from NEA manufactured firearms parts to NASA aerospace engineered parts on the ISS (although I'm sure one has a few more 0's)

Read above..

There is a fair bit of ??? in this response.

What I will agree with is that there are of crap LPKs out there. Mostly from unknown brands who purchase others rejects.

A: You don't understand what 'tolerance stacking' means. Saying a company 'doesn't tolerance stack' confirms this. FoxAlpha has already explained it.

B: Your comment on 2-stage AR15 triggers for is simply the opposite of reality. With a much shorter reset and 1/3 the lock time of a milspec trigger, plus lower release weight on that short reset second stage, Geissele 2-stage triggers are VASTLY faster than a milspec trigger and are a distinct advantage in rapid or action shooting. Geissele hybrid 3-gun triggers are faster again. They are absolutely ideal for action shooting and rapid fire, which is why so many winning shooters use them, and why youtube is full of vids of GA 2-stage and Hybrid mag dumps and speed tests.

And you too are proven wrong in not just my example but your example of 2 stage triggers not being used for action or for rapid firing.

Next.

I agree the reset is shorter and the second stage is a lighter weight of pull. Getting to that second stage is where the problem lies. Snatching the trigger on the first pull means poor results down range. If you can't work the reset then it doesn't matter what style of trigger you use, although a 2 stage gives you much more running room for continued snatching over a single stage. The rest I've answered above. On a final note one of the local area 3 gun winners here uses either a BCM QNT trigger or an ALG ACT trigger both of which are milspec single stage triggers. I personally have never seen anyone win or lose a match due to the "speed" of the trigger or lack thereof. The advantage of any high speed(and high dollar) trigger is mostly myth.

As for your last statement, no I am not proven wrong. Nowhere did I say that 2 stage triggers are NOT being used. I said they were not ideal... Comprehension is very much lacking on this forum.

I've only had one dealing with Arms East but I really can't say enough about how awesome they were. Many of the vendors here are "will ship in 1-3 business days" Arms East had my order in my hands within 36 hours of placing it if memory serves. That includes them emailing me to ask me how I wanted it shipped.

I tried to deal with Arms East a few years back and all I got was lip service, so take that for what it is.

 

[Sinasta]

Ok my bad, you said they were not ideal.

Heres one article from someone whos been there and done that and disagrees with you.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/11/29/single-stage-vs-double-stage-triggers/

 

[greentips]

Add a bit more money and buy the Giessele 2G. Problem solved. Used to be a hardcore single stage military trigger guy, but why makes life harder than it should be? The Giessele SSA will pass military drop test so there is no reason of not going the route of less resistance.

 

[Kidd X]

Ok my bad, you said they were not ideal.

Heres one article from someone whos been there and done that and disagrees with you.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/11/29/single-stage-vs-double-stage-triggers/

Did you read the article? He discusses very light weight single stage triggers as a poor option for high stress situations. I'm sure we can all agree on that statement. He also mentions that a quality single stage like the ALG ACT trigger that has a consistent (safe)weight and no creep is an excellent option. If you keep reading he also mentions that a two stage is excellent for LONG RANGE PRECISION which is not an element in action shooting/3 gun. Again, the beauty of the 2 stage is as mentioned the short trigger travel, short reset and light(er) second stage. I believe I just said the same thing in my last post.. If you are trying to get a trigger that is heavy enough to be safe but offer you the short/light pull for precision work then a 2 stage might be the closest option. However, action shooting/3 gun doesn't involve long range nor does it involve high levels of precision so the benefits of that short/light second stage are pretty well useless for the close in targets where speed and acceptable accuracy are in order.

 

[FoxAlpha]

I think we can all agree to wrap up the bantering back and forth. We all agree that quality IN SPEC parts from reputable manufacturers is nothing but a benefit, if not a basic requirement. No contest on this.

Next, we can all argue until the cows come home between single stage and 2 stage triggers but at the end of the day, do whatever you need to to get the best results YOU can. It's not like we're going to gas you for saying you prefer Heinz over Frenches.

Third, and to the OP, best of luck completing your build, and remember the golden rule of the most accessorized rifle on earth.
Fancy parts are cool to look at but it doesn't mean squat on the firing line, always spend more on ammo and training then the various parts and gadgets.

 

[Sinasta]

Did you read the article? He discusses very light weight single stage triggers as a poor option for high stress situations. I'm sure we can all agree on that statement. He also mentions that a quality single stage like the ALG ACT trigger that has a consistent (safe)weight and no creep is an excellent option. If you keep reading he also mentions that a two stage is excellent for LONG RANGE PRECISION which is not an element in action shooting/3 gun. Again, the beauty of the 2 stage is as mentioned the short trigger travel, short reset and light(er) second stage. I believe I just said the same thing in my last post.. If you are trying to get a trigger that is heavy enough to be safe but offer you the short/light pull for precision work then a 2 stage might be the closest option. However, action shooting/3 gun doesn't involve long range nor does it involve high levels of precision so the benefits of that short/light second stage are pretty well useless for the close in targets where speed and acceptable accuracy are in order.

Yup, I guess you didnt finish the article.

Two-stage triggers used to be considered poor choices for fighting rifles: too long in pull and too slow to reset in a situation where fractions of seconds can separate life and death. I have never bought into this theory, though, because I had two-stage, match triggers on military-issue [semi-auto] sniper rifles and CQB carbines that served me just fine while up close and personal with people trying to kill me.

 

[84wh1]

I think we can all agree to wrap up the bantering back and forth. We all agree that quality IN SPEC parts from reputable manufacturers is nothing but a benefit, if not a basic requirement. No contest on this.

Next, we can all argue until the cows come home between single stage and 2 stage triggers but at the end of the day, do whatever you need to to get the best results YOU can. It's not like we're going to gas you for saying you prefer Heinz over Frenches.

Third, and to the OP, best of luck completing your build, and remember the golden rule of the most accessorized rifle on earth.
Fancy parts are cool to look at but it doesn't mean squat on the firing line, always spend more on ammo and training then the various parts and gadgets.

Thanks man. Believe me I don't toss tons of crap on my rifles. This is my 3rd build and 4th AR. Since I'm building a top tier AR, I just wanted to see what everyone's personal experience was between these 2 kits. I didn't really want to go el cheapo LPK in a Colt Canada. I despise when guys over accessorize their rifles. Only thing i ever add other than basics is an illumination source for low light shooting. Keep it light and simple is what ive always preached.

 

[Kidd X]

Yup, I guess you didnt finish the article.

And here's the part you failed to mention. "My teammates and I preferred two-stage triggers to shoot accurately at long ranges without the light trigger liability of a single-stage at close range." The author and his teammates would work around the two stage issues for up close work but preferred them for LONG RANGE shooting. Action shooting/3 gun does not involve long range shooting, in fact the majority of shots at a match are 100 yards and less. The amount of longer shots is very minimal.