Death of the Berger 6mm 105 VLD

PEI is correct. The 8% reduction in BC means that at 1000 yards, there is an additional minute of wind drift in a 10 MPH wind. 10 inches!

This used to be a respectable 1000 yard bullet.
 
Despite returning from SHOT show, Eric Stecker, THE man at Berger responded at 8:45 this AM !!!!. Now that is prompt customer service.

"Jerry,

I will instruct Andrea to process an RMA so that the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target bullets can be returned. We will replace them as soon as possible with the 6mm 105 gr VLD Hunting.

I understand your concern and frustration with this situation. It is important to relay that we announced this change as soon as we made the decision to make the change. It is also regrettable that those who are cancelling orders are not willing to try these bullets before they decide not to use them. The changes that were made will allow these bullets to shoot very well. Also, we will of course accept returns if they tyr them and then choose not to use them.

I am not sure how we could have handled this any better. Our dealers and the shooters should not feel blindsided since the other bullet brands would have simply said nothing and likely would not have accepted returns. It is my opinion that we are handling this in the best way it can be handled and I assure you that no one will be “stuck” with bullets they can’t sell or shoot.

Regards,
Eric"

So for those that placed preorders for the TARGET 6mm 105's VLD, I will be sending you the HUNTING variant as soon as I get them. These will retain the higher, desired BC AND likely require little load changes to shoot. I pretty much swap hunting and target VLDs in my rifles with little load tweaking.

Ironically, the Hunting jacket was the orig design that put Berger on the map. Good stuff.

This has been a pretty busy weekend answering questions and putting out fires. The support from BERGER is greatly appreciate and the way it was done gives me HUGE confidence in promoting their products further.

They certainly stand behind their bullets and show the intent to keep shooters happy now and in the future.

For a company who's product set many records in 2009 on paper, may 2010 set many records in SALES.....

Jerry
 
I shot the hunting match bullets yesterday and the results were good enought that I will likely continue, however, "good service" in the face of inferior product is pointless. Aubrey's Coca-Cola analogy is actually quite apt.

As to their presumption that any other manufacturer would have done differently... well, were you told when you ordered these, "hey... um, we sort of changed the designs just a tiny little bit"? I supect Sierra or Lapua would have been a bit more up front about their planned changes.

Anyway, I'm sure those bullet will shoot very accurately, however they no longer have the performance numbers for my style of shooting. Their BC can hardly be called "Very Low Drag"
 
Jerry,

The order Marc put in with you (our group buy) was included in the shipment on it's way I believe.

I need bullets for Sacramento in March which I am starting to load up starting this week. If those bullets don't make it here in time I am going to have to look elsewhere to get enough bullets to load, I believe WSS has the Hunting marked bullets in stock right now. (I have 1300 rounds to load to take with me including 650 6BR's and 650 .260's and I can only do 100 a night MAX) And I really don't want to have to start to do load dev. for the Sierra's in a gun that I know shoots the Berger's well.

Any chance we can get Eric to cross ship? (EDIT: Looks to me by the email he sent that they probably don't have them in stock)

I know you put the order in way back before the Frosty and Berger has been taking their sweet time (going on 4 months) getting them out and is no way your fault, but they are really starting to leave a sour taste in my mouth with the lead time and then the fact that they change things up and only let ppl know when they go to ship them out rather than letting you know ahead of time.

This just might be the last order of Berger's I ever use....if they make it in time.

Eric's comment regarding letting people know as soon as they changed the design is complete BS.....his post regarding the change included the line "we are shipping them out now" meaning that he let the info out AS the bullets were shipping.

Date of the info released on Berger's site:
This entry was posted on Friday, January 15th, 2010 at 9:11 am and is filed under Announcements, BC, VLDs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
Click to expand...
 
I am working to find a way to get some bullets to fill various needs.

I think Berger is realizing what a mess they have created with one of their most popular bullets. I really don't think mine is the only dealer/customer they have had to deal with on this matter.

All I can say is their response to me so far has been very good.

Why they didn't do this a few weeks or a month back is another story.

I will be in touch shortly with how the shipping and timing will go.

As I have said, Berger makes a really great bullet but their production scheduling is less then desired (a byproduct of making such bullets that demand outstrips supply). They are going through some serious growing pains which hopefully will ease as their new equipment comes online.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
I think Berger is realizing what a mess they have created with one of their most popular bullets. I really don't think mine is the only dealer/customer they have had to deal with on this matter.
Click to expand...

Since each state in the US probably uses more bullets from them in a month than we use in Canada over the course of a year I am sure they have created quite the s**tstorm with the late release of this information, and I am sure that they are having to answer a lot of questions from their US dealers as well.

Hopefully everything will turn out in the end.
 
Some very good news this morning.

I will be getting a block of 105gr 6mm Hunting bullets shortly. It is not all that was originally ordered but enough to cover most orders.

If all goes well, I will get them in the next week or so and will ship promptly.

I will get more on their next production run to cover the remaining orders and also have some for inventory.

It has been a challenging last few days but with support from Berger AND customers, it looks like we will have bullets to shoot for upcoming matches.

Thanks to all the customers for their understanding in working through this problem.

Your support is greatly appreciated.... :)
Jerry
 
Eric's comment regarding letting people know as soon as they changed the design is complete BS.
Click to expand...

I can assure you it's not BS.

Eric and the production team were struggling to make the 6mm 105 VLD's on thick jackets for a while before considering a change to the design (which lead to the larger knock-out pin). Samples of each bullet were over-nighted to me for analysis the week of Jan 10th. Over the next few days, we discussed options and decided it was better to make consistent bullets with lower BC's than to make higher BC bullets inconsistently. The web log article was prepared and published by Friday of that same week (the same week the decision was made). Since that time, the machine has been making the new design. As Eric said, I don't know how we could have done this any better or communicated the information any quicker than we did. As for other brands doing it 'better', ask yourself when the last time any of them gave you a heads up about a change to an existing bullet. If the answer is never, ask yourself if it's likely that they've never made a change, or if they just don't share the information at all.

It's important to keep this 'reduced BC' in perspective before totally jumping ship. The drag of the new (lower BC) 105 VLD is:
8% worse than the original 105 VLD
6% worse than the JLK 105 VLD
2% worse than the Sierra 107 MK
Equal to the Berger 105 BT (practically identical)
Equal to a 105 Amax (practically identical)
1.3% better than the 105 Scenar

So we didn't destroy the BC of this bullet beyond use. Most LR target shooters agree that reliable consistency is very important and that's what we chose to focus on when the manufacturing challenges of the thicker jackets presented themselves.

Also, as previously mentioned, the original (standard thickness) jacket VLD's will continue to be made with the original meplat diameter and the same high BC. The 'problem' that resulted in the larger meplat is a consequence of the thick jacket so the non-thick jacket bullets are unaffected. For those shooting moderate capacity 6mm cartridges, these thin jacket bullets will certainly hold up.

I want to thank Jerry for working thru this with us and doing the leg work to get shooters the best bullets for their needs. You guys are lucky to have someone up there who cares enough to do that.

Take care,
-Bryan
 
Last edited:
Bryan,

Thanks for clearing that up, I just found it strange that 2 or 3 days after the news release Eric had a post (may have been on Accurate Shooter Forum) saying that the bullets were already shipping.

I shot all last season with the old style thick jacket bullets and I happened to do extremely well with them.

It is just disappointing to me to see that big of a reduction in the BC as the high BC, and consistency, were the main reasons I chose to shoot Berger in this rifle. (I was shooting Sierra 107's up until last year and doing quite well with them)

One of the comments in your release was that "these bullets would benefit from a pointing die system". I don't feel the need (nor should I) to have to spend $290+ USD on a die and sleeve to make up what was already there in the first place. Why not add another step in the production and do this for us?

I have not the first clue about bullet making so I guess not knowing the intricacies of what it takes to produce a top quality bullet means that myself (and thousands of other) have to trust in those that do and accept whatever product they ship out for us to use.
 
Last edited:
C,

I certainly understand your position. The 105's being made on the thick jackets were good, but they required an unsustainable amount of effort to keep them that way. When it became clear that we would have quality problems, we made the necessary adjustments to avoid that.

Making high BC bullets is one challenge. Making consistent bullets is another challenge. Sometimes achieving both goals is especially hard and the 6mm 105 VLD's with thick jackets just happens to be one of those difficult cases.

You also make a good point about the cost of a pointing die. The process of pointing bullets costs money regardless of who does it. If we were to point them at the factory, they would cost more for everyone who buys them. Since most people are satisfied with the bullets unpointed, it would be a poor decision for us to do that and force everyone to incur the cost. By leaving the option up to the individual shooters, those who believe it's worth it can exercise the option at their expense, while not forcing everyone to incur the cost. My intent was only to point out that these wider tipped bullets stand more to gain from pointing than others for those who choose to do it.

Again, thanks for your understanding. It's regrettable that this compromise was necessary but I believe we've done the best we could with it.

-Bryan
 
From Berger Bullets

I'll do my best to address several comments made for the benefit of those who made them and for those who read them and would like an answer. First I'll relay that I am very surprised at how badly this has been taken by several shooters. My surprise is born from my knowledge of all that has been done to make this bullet. If I knew that we were working this hard to make people this mad we would have stopped long ago.

To know what has happened you need to know the history of this situation. Berger's were being reported as failing to reach the target. The number of occurrences was very small but the rumor that a Berger might fail led many shooters to not trust them enough to give them a try. This is a situation we needed to resolve.

We pursued this problem with the same "make it better" attitude with which we approach every challenge. It took several years but we defined and solved the problem. The solution was a thicker jacket that insulated the core from the heat generated by friction between the bearing surface and the rifling.

Making this thicker jacket is easier in some calibers than it is in other. I won't bore everyone with the lengthy technical details. The end result was large amounts of 6mm jackets that were scrapped and sporadic production of useable jackets. This is a situation that needed to be solved. We started work on the solution during the summer of 2009. A solution was implemented and jackets were available around October.

The 6mm 105 gr VLD Target is our most popular target bullet so we were set up to start making bullets right away. This is when we learned that the column of lead moved forward to the point where lead was coming up to the tip of the nose. Those who make secant ogive bullets are aware of the greater amount of pressure needed to form this shape. You add a nose full of lead and our presses were straining from the effort. Also, a bullet that takes this much pressure to form takes more pressure to eject.

We spent several months trying everything we knew and started experimenting with things we've never tried before. In the end there are four facts. 1. We can't make the bullet successfully with the existing tooling. 2. The tooling that exists now that can make this bullet produces a bullet with a lower BC. 3. Tooling that will produce a bullet with a higher BC will take several months to create. 4. People have been waiting too long for these bullets and have nothing to shoot.

I made the decision that precise bullets with a lower BC are better than no bullets. I authorized the production of the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target on the die using the larger knock out pin. Since we had already produced the materials and had been working on this bullet for several months the machine was ready to go so production began. We immediately sent bullets to Bryan for a thorough review because I knew what this change meant and that it is very important that we communicate this change to everyone.

I listed this on as many websites as I could recall mentioning the use of 6mm 105 gr VLD Target bullets. Obviously, I overlooked the Gun Nutz and this is regrettable. I would much rather have been the one who started this thread as I would have named it differently.

For those who wonder why we can "still call this bullet a VLD" let me explain what defines a VLD bullet. This used to be posted on our website somewhere but it's been a while since I've discussed it. The name Very Low Drag was coined when Bill Davis went to work designing a lighter 6mm bullet (for less recoil) that had less drift and drop than heavier 30 cal bullets. Being a ballistician he knew he had to design a bullet with shapes that produced the least amount of drag or said differently had a "very low drag" profile.

This design incorporated two distinct design features. The first is a long BT with an angle of 9 degree or less. The second is a secant ogive. The bullet that was born from this effort was the 6mm 105 gr VLD. The bullet we are making today still incorporates the long 9 degree BT and a secant ogive. In fact the BC of the new bullet at a G7 BC of .251 is still better than the G7 BC of the bullet it was designed to outperform (168 gr SMK G7=.218).

At Berger we work very hard to make the best bullets in the world for a reason. We are genuinely interested in the shooter's success. This brings me back to my confusion over the level of anger over this situation and the accusations that we've crapped in our mess kit so to speak. It will prove out that these bullets will shoot better scores than alternative brands and it will be the result of aspects of our bullets that many shooters take for granted and that no other brand produces. Those who suggest that this situation will results in them never using Berger again are dismissing everything we’ve done to produce an enhanced shooting experience for rifle shooters. It hard to understand why this situation results in all of our efforts being undone.

Having said that, if we are to be hung by our entrails for making such a colossal blunder then I offer this solution. Anyone who is unhappy with the performance of this bullet can contact us to arrange for their return. (Certain additional steps will be required for those in Canada) We will exchange these bullets for your choice of either the 105 gr VLD Hunting (G7 BC=0.272), the 108 gr BT Target (G7 BC=0.262) or you can be placed on a list for the new 105 gr class VLD bullet that will be designed to allow for a larger hollow point and a higher BC (we can't say when this new bullet will be available).

I will also offer this alternative option. Anyone who uses the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target with the larger meplat to place in the top 3 overall at any match shot by more than 50 shooters shall be given 10 more boxes (1,000 bullets) for free. All you have to do is send us the match report, details of your load, a picture of your ammo showing the larger hole VLD and a copy of this post. We will list you on our website under the Success Stories section. This offer is available for those who shoot matches in Canada and the US. To qualify the match must be a regularly schedule match that was held in the previous year.

Regards,
Eric
 
Last edited:
CyaN1de said:
I will also offer this alternative option. Anyone who uses the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target with the larger meplat to place in the top 3 overall at any match shot by more than 50 shooters shall be given 10 more boxes (1,000 bullets) for free. All you have to do is send us the match report, details of your load, a picture of your ammo showing the larger hole VLD and a copy of this post. We will list you on our website under the Success Stories section. This offer is available for those who shoot matches in Canada and the US. To qualify the match must be a regularly schedule match that was held in the previous year.

Regards,
Eric
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response Eric. I know we Canadians are a "drop in the bucket" as far as numbers of shooters and I think it's great that you can take the time to address our needs as well.

The above quote sounds like a Dare to me. :)

Let's say we give you the benefit of the doubt and try these new bullets...If they are successful are you still going to try and get the BC back up to where it was (or better) with a new design or will this be the standard for the 6mm VLD Target?

Richard

EDITED TO ADD: The reason for me to be concerned with the reduction is that 95% of my shooting is done with my 6BR so I go through a fair number of these pills/year. I should be into the 2000+ mark this year. Maybe this is a low number compared to what some of the US guys use, but I am a working man on a working mans wage and struggle to make as many shoots as I do in a season. Maybe I can get Berger to sponsor me to help cut my costs down :D
 
Last edited:
Cyanide,

First let me be clear that we are as interested in the success of the Canadian shooters as we are the US shooter or shooters from any country. It is not the number of shooters that we are interested in but rather the quality of the shooter who has decided to use Berger.

We recognize that those using Berger are typically more advanced in their knowledge and ability. These folks expect better results and we accept responsibility for doing what it takes to produce these results. If we had one shooter using our bullets in Canada we'd still do all we could to make sure he is happy.

You are correct that we are already working on a new design that allows us to incorporate what we need to make these bullets with the thicker jacket while at the same time increasing BC back to or higher than the smaller meplat 105 gr VLD Target. This will take time (9 months or more) and we are not certain what the results will be at first. Of course we will keep working at it until it shoots but there are a number of bullets that don't make it out of the testing phase.

Another important aspect to relay is that assuming we are able to make a higher BC bullet in the 105 gr class this does not mean that we will discontinue the current large meplat 105 gr VLD. There are a number of examples where we made a similar weight bullet with a higher BC but continued to make the bullet with the lesser BC.

The 105 gr BT is one example. After the 108 gr BT was introduced it was clear that the 108 gr was a better bullet than the 105 gr BT if you look just at BC. Since we sell a large number of the 105 gr BT we decided to keep it in the line. Today it is still a good seller. We sell less of these than we did before but the 108 gr BT has not wiped out all desire for the 105 gr BT.

This is an example of why I am so confident that the larger meplat 105 gr VLD bullet will still work so well. The ogive shape is identical to the smaller meplat VLD which means that if the smaller meplat VLD shot well then the larger meplat VLD will also with no change in seating depth.

Shooters are quick to dismiss precision. Most of those who try Bergers report higher scores. It is certainly true that a bullet with a higher BC has its advantages but frankly bullets that group tighter and go where you expect them to do so because of the quality of the bullet (good jackets, clean materials, straightness, consistent dimensions and balance) not because of a higher BC.

I am ranting a bit because I am still worked up over the harsh criticism we received on this thread. The bottom line is if I had to choose between a bullet with a higher BC that was made with a process that is focused on high volume and low price (consistency is not the primary concern) vs. a bullet with lower BC made by a process focussed on consistency I'd pick the later every time. At least I'll know why my shot did not go where I wanted it to.

Regards,
Eric
 
BryanLitz said:
I want to thank Jerry for working thru this with us and doing the leg work to get shooters the best bullets for their needs. You guys are lucky to have someone up there who cares enough to do that.

Take care,
-Bryan
Click to expand...

My pleasure and thanks to you and Eric for stepping up to help provide a very workable solution. And for giving your thoughts on this situation.

It is appreciated.

Eric, the offer on the 6mm bullets is very generous but I wonder if there is a match in BC that has 50 entrants???? :D

Look forward to the shipment and getting these bullets into shooters hands.

Jerry
 
Eric is one of the best

I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times at the Firearms Industry super Shoot at Kelblys range in north laurence OHIO in the spring of each year, he does quite well at Benchrest shooting and good old Walt and I have shot next to each other a few times, also a fine a gentleman as you will ever meet.

I must say since 2007 Eric has spent a few hours with me discussing the CANADIAN SITUATION, and has been forthright in his approach of honesty and no-nonsence thought process.

From my past I realize Eric and all the staff at berger bullets are trying their level best to produce the best bullets they can for shooters that really care,

it is not just a day job, IT IS A LIFE LONG PASSION for both Eric and Walt (always call him Mr. Berger when we shoot together)

They have stepped up and answered the Canadian shooters, I fell proud to know them both.

PS now I got to build a 6mmBR to shoot, mmmmmmmm stiller or Barnard, Robertson stock, since I have 8 BATS and dont need more.

later

Jefferson
Benchrest Shooters Canada President 2008-2010
World Benchrest Federation Canadian Delegate 2005-2010
and all around good guy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom