Decision time-- MOA or MRAD??

So your saying a FFP WILL cover more if the target at max zoom then it will at min zoom ?

Yes. That is correct. Good for hunting perhaps, not so good for punching small groups on targets far away. The big magnified reticule covers too much of the target.

For dynamic shooting situations where you might be using your reticule to estimate ranges, and have to make adjustments fast and shoot fast, then an FFP scope makes sense, since you can measure distance at any magnification. With a 2FP scope, the measurement feature is only accurate at one magnification setting.

On my Sightron its 12 power, on my Nightforce it's 16 I believe. One could just buy a laser rangefinder and get even faster more accurate readings, no math required.

It is written that most of us mere mortals can't really accurately measure 1/10 MIL when using our MIL-DOT scopes for range estimation. Ymmv... of course
 
A practical application for your theories:

OK.
If a target is fairly close-by, I'm zoomed out to minimum magnification. My field is wide and it's an easy shot, so I don't need to see any of that data that's concentrated near the centre of the reticule.
Next, a target is acquired way far away. I can barely make it out with my naked eye, so I zoom in all the way to max power for that long shot.
Now if I'm using a SFP scope, the target now appears much larger, but the reticule is still the same apparent size it was earlier, except that now, when I could actually use that data, it's still too tiny for me to read.
Had I been using a scope with FFP, that reticule would've grown right along with the target's image and I could read those numbers a lot more easily.
The cross hairs and graduations might look somewhat thicker, and the consequent adjustment a bit coarser than I (theoetically) could make using the SFP reticule, and that's the trade-off I think I'm willing to accept. (Confidentially) my shooting skills are not such that I can purposely move a shot on the paper 1/4" or even 1" at 50 yards, so I can't see how the apparent difference in reticule line thickness is going to make any significant difference to where I adjust my turrets, or where my next group is going to land.

IDK, I have no real experience actually shooting/sighting in with a FFP scope, but from what I've seen so far, that's the one for me.
I hope.
 
OK.
If a target is fairly close-by, I'm zoomed out to minimum magnification. My field is wide and it's an easy shot, so I don't need to see any of that data that's concentrated near the centre of the reticule.
Next, a target is acquired way far away. I can barely make it out with my naked eye, so I zoom in all the way to max power for that long shot.
Now if I'm using a SFP scope, the target now appears much larger, but the reticule is still the same apparent size it was earlier, except that now, when I could actually use that data, it's still too tiny for me to read.
Had I been using a scope with FFP, that reticule would've grown right along with the target's image and I could read those numbers a lot more easily.
The cross hairs and graduations might look somewhat thicker, and the consequent adjustment a bit coarser than I (theoetically) could make using the SFP reticule, and that's the trade-off I think I'm willing to accept. (Confidentially) my shooting skills are not such that I can purposely move a shot on the paper 1/4" or even 1" at 50 yards, so I can't see how the apparent difference in reticule line thickness is going to make any significant difference to where I adjust my turrets, or where my next group is going to land.

IDK, I have no real experience actually shooting/sighting in with a FFP scope, but from what I've seen so far, that's the one for me.
I hope.

That's a very good assessment of the differences and the implications on usage.
 
Yes. That is correct. Good for hunting perhaps, not so good for punching small groups on targets far away. The big magnified reticule covers too much of the target.

then thats incorrect, a FFP retical stays the exact same size on target weather your 5 or 25x mag. as you zoom in every thing target image and retical gets bigger.. yes it looks thicker in the scope, but it doesnt obscure more of the target then it ever did...





OK.
If a target is fairly close-by, I'm zoomed out to minimum magnification. My field is wide and it's an easy shot, so I don't need to see any of that data that's concentrated near the centre of the reticule.
Next, a target is acquired way far away. I can barely make it out with my naked eye, so I zoom in all the way to max power for that long shot.


Now if I'm using a SFP scope, the target now appears much larger, but the reticule is still the same apparent size it was earlier, except that now, when I could actually use that data, it's still too tiny for me to read.
Had I been using a scope with FFP, that reticule would've grown right along with the target's image and I could read those numbers a lot more easily.

no, if your using a SFP the retical will be readable, but the hash marks dont mean any thing, some scopes are set true at 10x, others at max (and any where esle for that matter) so lets say your hash marks are atru at 10x. you zoom into 20x, now those marks are 1/2 mil not 1 mil, zoom in to 25 they are different again, zoom out to 18x and once again, different... a FFP they are 1mil at 5x or 25x it doesnt matter


The cross hairs and graduations might look somewhat thicker, and the consequent adjustment a bit coarser than I (theoetically) could make using the SFP reticule, and that's the trade-off I think I'm willing to accept
. (Confidentially) my shooting skills are not such that I can purposely move a shot on the paper 1/4" or even 1" at 50 yards, so I can't see how the apparent difference in reticule line thickness is going to make any significant difference to where I adjust my turrets, or where my next group is going to land.

yes they appear thicker IN THE SCOPE, but their relation to the target has never changed (in FFP) the ajustments being courser or not is based on a mil or MOA retical, you can get a MOA/MOA in FFP or MIL /MIL or MIL/MOA or MOA/MIL. but if they dont match, its math time!

IDK, I have no real experience actually shooting/sighting in with a FFP scope, but from what I've seen so far, that's the one for me.
I hope.


where on the island are you? iv got FFP and SFP scopes, your more then welcome to look threw / shoot them
 
Thanks for that excellent, clear explanation. GoogleFu failed me Last time I search for comparision of FFP vs SFP.

Please continue to post these constructive/informative posts. Guys like you are why some of us still hanging around CGN.

Now I know to get a SPF for my target rifle and a FFP for my hunting Minute of MOOSE rifle.

thanks again.
...
So to reiterate and be crystal clear for you: for some shooters (such as F-Class), an SFP reticle is preferred because it obscures less of the target than an FFP will, at higher magnification. Hopefully that is clear enough.

And people wonder why there are fewer and fewer constructive/informative posts in these forums.


Posted pictures are worth a thousand words. So obvious that had you not posted I though PSS was being verbose and totally redundant with the second and third explainations. Poor horse is a pulp, let it be :jerkit:
then thats incorrect, a FFP retical stays the exact same size on target weather your 5 or 25x mag. as you zoom in every thing target image and retical gets bigger.. yes it looks thicker in the scope, but it doesnt obscure more of the target then it ever did...

...

where on the island are you? iv got FFP and SFP scopes, your more then welcome to look threw / shoot them
 
You're stuck on some word-picking attempt to be "right".

i said right in my first post, that it was probably how your wording was that made it seem like your saying the retic covers more of the target at higher mag in FFP...

Since we're into this, let's look at exactly what I said to trigger your obtuse argument:

"Second, a SFP reticle will give the shooter the same sight picture, with the same reticle sub-tension sizes (not values though), at any magnification. Some prefer this, as the reticle does not get larger as the magnification increases (such as with a FFP reticle), which can result in the target being obscured, thus affecting the shooters ability to make fine adjustments to the point of impact."

To which you replied:

"the recital doesnt get bigger in a FFP per-say, it is a constant to the target, so if it covers 1" of target at min zoom, it still only covers 1" of target at max zoom, as the whole image magnifies."

First, you are incorrect: an FFP reticle does, in fact, get bigger/fatter/thicker as the magnification increases. Just because the image gets bigger, does not mean the reticle hasn't actually become larger - it does. Are you saying it doesn't? Are you arguing that at high mag, an FFP does not obscure more of the target than an SFP?

it gets bigger in the scope yes, the retical to image relation on a FFP scope stays constant threw out the magnification range never did i say that a FFP wasnt thicker then a SPF. i never even mentioned SFP

You are correct that the area of coverage stays relative (again...that's the point of FFP), however you're errant in accusing me of stating that as an FFP reticle grows, it obscures more of the target at high mag, than it does at low mag.

I don't say that anywhere.


you said " as the reticle does not get larger as the magnification increases (such as with a FFP reticle), which can result in the target being obscured" to which i said, due to the wording it sounds like your saying the retical covers more of the target at max mag then at min in a FFP... so i was simply trying to clarify for people that it doesnt, FFP is constant , yes thats the whole point

That's your error or construct. Whether it's a lack of reading comprehension, or a willful attempt to fabricate an argument that you can win, you've strayed into left field.

not trying to argue, trying to get as much correct information out thats easy to understand for ever one. look at peacefrogs post.. (sorry PF but this is a prime example) that the FFP covers MORE on max then it does on min.. which you and i know it doesnt

I even made this more apparent for you with the insertion of comparative pictures above and the following: "Pretty easy to see, that at 16x, the FFP reticle is thicker and covers more of the target, than the SFP reticle...which is one of the reasons why F-Class shooters aren't fond of FFP reticles."

thats great, but as i said , i never brought SFP into my posts, i reiterate, that i was trying to clear up the wording of " as the retical does not get larger as the magnification increases (such as with a FFP reticle), which can result in the target being obscured"

So to reiterate and be crystal clear for you: for some shooters (such as F-Class), an SFP reticle is preferred because it obscures less of the target than an FFP will, at higher magnification. Hopefully that is clear enough.

it was never blurry, i think we are agreeing but on very different wave lengths

And people wonder why there are fewer and fewer constructive/informative posts in these forums.

i wont reply to the last remark
 
It's pretty simple when you think about it...

FFP: Reduce the magnification in half, your reticle is half the size... but, so it your target. It covers the same amount of the target.

SFP: Reduce the magnification in half, your reticle stays the same size... but, you're target is half the size. The reticle now covers twice the amount of target.

I even made this more apparent for you with the insertion of comparative pictures above and the following: "Pretty easy to see, that at 16x, the FFP reticle is thicker and covers more of the target, than the SFP reticle...which is one of the reasons why F-Class shooters aren't fond of FFP reticles."

So to reiterate and be crystal clear for you: for some shooters (such as F-Class), an SFP reticle is preferred because it obscures less of the target than an FFP will, at higher magnification. Hopefully that is clear enough.

And people wonder why there are fewer and fewer constructive/informative posts in these forums.

Apples to oranges... F-Class shooters don't shoot tactical scopes (not enough zoom for them).

If you want to compare apples to apples; for tactical scope in the 6-24x or 5-25x range, there is little difference between the SPF and FFP reticles in the high-end scopes. In the low end stuff, sure... Vortex and Sightron have different reticle specs for their SFP and FFP scopes (thick FFP reticles are found mostly in cheap scopes and ones with Horus reticles). Other mfgs spec the reticle thickness at the maximum magnification to be the same for both the SFP and FFP scopes. The FFP reticle stays the same relative to the target while the SFP one covers more of it the lower you go in magnification.

Most of your popular FFP reticles (G2 DMR, Gen2 XR, Klein, H2CMR) are thinner than the MOAR reticle in the Nighforce NXS line (at any magnification). The MOAR-T and EBR-1 (SFP) are only marginally thinner than the Gen2 XR. In many of the high power target scope the F-Class guys use, the reticles are spec'd at 40x, and even at 40x many of the ones with the dots cover more of the target than those FFP reticles. If you dial them down to 25x, they way more of the target than the FFP reticles.
 
Kombayotch made the point that I was going to bring up about reticle thickness.

Not all FFP reticles are created equal...far from it actually. The cheaper FFP scopes do indeed have reticles that are thicker than they should be at lower magnification making them difficult to use at higher magnification when trying to print small groups. Even on some of the high end scopes, up until not too long ago you could find these larger reticles.

Conversely, when you have a FFP scope that has a reticle that is "just perfect" for shooting tiny groups at longer ranges(call it 800m+), it often makes the reticle difficult to see/use at lower magnification especially if your vision isn't what it once may have been.

I am partial to the true tactical scopes myself as I don't shoot F class and rarely do I shoot at a range ,also I shoot all of my rifles in hunting situations so the fact that my reticle holdover is the same regardless of the magnification of the scope is a very real measurable benefit. The tactical scopes by nature of their intended purpose are also far more robust than your average target scope.

FYI there are manufacturers that make FFP scopes in .05 mil adjustments which makes the "finer adjustment MOA" argument a moot point(S&B and March come to mind).
 
Some of the manufacturers are starting to listen to shooters who actually run and know how to shoot FFP scopes (like George Gardiner), and are designing their reticles better. If you look at the G2, the center of the reticle is 0.03mil, then it goes to 0.05mil.

BTW, the finer adjustment thing is an internet argument that means very little in practice. I asked my buddy Rad (who just won the Berger SW Nationals and the 1000 yard match at the Worlds) if he though the 1/8 MOA adjustments on his March gave him any advantage over the 1/4 MOA ones on his Nightforce. The answer from a guy that has won a major US F-Class match: makes no difference for him. Why? Because once he dials into the bull, he starts holding off. He doesn't dial... by the time you've dialed on a range like Raton, you've missed your window on the condition.
 
Sorry to jump in, but I see you said you have a Vortex ffp. Looking at buying either a use Nightforce or a Vortex ffp. How do you like the Vortex? Would you buy again?

Thanks again,
Chad
 
Sorry to jump in, but I see you said you have a Vortex ffp. Looking at buying either a use Nightforce or a Vortex ffp. How do you like the Vortex? Would you buy again?

Thanks again,
Chad

If you're looking at both scopes in FFP and have the $ then I would go with Nightforce. Clearer glass, better turrets, better zerostop, and overall better product.

Vortex isn't a bad product, has a very good glass for the price range, good turrets, and the illumination system on a PST is fast and easy to use. If you're on a limited budget the price difference will buy a bunch of ammo to practice with with no regrets ;).
 
What was the question?

To return to the OP's (me) Q:

OK, everything is the same as stated in post #1 except that I've switched allegiance over to being just about to pull the trigger for a Sightron III 6-24x50, FFP,...MOA....

Yeah, the Sightron is actually a few dollars less than the equivalent Vortex.

(LSS, they had the Vortex at our local Gunz-R-Us, but in MRAD ONLY, with no MOA model in the offing :runaway:
then the Sightron came available to me thru another sauce...)
 
To return to the OP's (me) Q:

OK, everything is the same as stated in post #1 except that I've switched allegiance over to being just about to pull the trigger for a Sightron III 6-24x50, FFP,...MOA....

Yeah, the Sightron is actually a few dollars less than the equivalent Vortex.

(LSS, they had the Vortex at our local Gunz-R-Us, but in MRAD ONLY, with no MOA model in the offing :runaway:
then the Sightron came available to me thru another sauce...)

I have had both the Vortex PST FFP and the Sightron FFP. Personally I preferred the Sightron for its reticle plus I just liked the feel of it better
 
I went with the Sightron III, FFP in MOA:

Yes, I'm quite thrilled with the Sightron. It really does work as promised. Here's my Savage 10 FPC HS, .308 c/w 10 round mag.
The scope is resting on an old 'Bee Square' Weaver rail with Burris XTR rings. I just plopped the Sightron on there the night before, torqued it down, set it up on my back porch table, and did an old-fashion 'eyeball boresight' at a 1" dot 25' away.
004-2.jpg


The next day we were out to the range with 25 rounds of "Hornady MATCH 168gr A-MAX". I used that bipod with a bag of rice under the buttstock.
And here are the results of our first outing together (and my first venture out beyond 100 yards since my Army days!). My first round hit the paper at 100 yards, so I was able to sight-in and get a good 100 yard zero, then shoot four 3 round groups of .26", .36", 1.25" (flyer) and .56".

Then we put this monster target out at 300 yards. I cranked the Sightron's elevation drum up 12" from my 100 yard zero, according to the ballistics chart shown on the bottom of the ammo box, settled in, and squeezed off 5 rounds.
006-2.jpg

Each square is 2" on a side, and my 5 shot group measured just under 1 MOA.
I could actually see the holes in the paper thru my scope (better than with my spotting scope!). So my upping of 12 was a bit too much. Next time I'll try cranking in just 8" of elevation.
I had four cartridges left. I aimed about 5" below that orange dot near the bottom and came purty close :0 ]
Then I rang the 300 yd GONG. With my last two remaining rounds, I moved the reticle back down to my 100 yd zero and poked two holes at .68 MOA.
I would liked to have gone for those four animals out at 300 if I had just four more rounds left. (;0 D

I packed up and went home, very pleased with my efforts and the performance of the Savage and her new Sightron.
SL


.
 
Yes, Sightron scopes are very good for that price. Hardly see the difference between Sightron and Vortex. I'll buy it again and again.
Other reason is I like the Sightron reticle.
 
I have both, MOA and MIL - MOA are in SFP and MIL are FFP. 1/4 MOA adjustments and 1/10 MIL adjustments ... I feel both are too fine adjustment wise. I can convert between the two, but I find myself leaning more toward MOA (at this time).
 
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