Decision Time re: Accuracy

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Dynamic1

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I am regularly getting sub-1" groups with my Ruger M77 in .223 (whichbis, incidentally, a SWEET rifle).

I have done my load testing and have a number of very satisfactory loads. Testing seating depth has proven difficult. I have RCBS FS dies and a Lee Neck Sizing die, which have been working well, however, I am having difficulty getting consistent bullet seating depth, as measured with a comparator. When I set my die and edge it down to get the OAL I want, I want the next round to be IDENTICAL. I can't, currently, get that consistency.

I am wanting to move to the next level and start shooting similar groups out to 250 yds (the limit of the range). I have been going through the various threads here (and on other sites), reading threads on Neck Tension, Seating Depth, Concentricity, etc. with great interest.

I think the next step is with respect to dies. What are the Pros / Cons of moving to an Arbour Press (with Wilson dies) vs Competition (Redding, for example) dies? An expected outcome of moving to (a) different die(s) to address Seating Depth would be more consistent neck tension.

It is a factory rifle and hasn't even been glass bedded yet! So, I am thinking I will have it glass bedded and crowned (if necessay) first while pondering the route to go re: dies. Thoughts? Recommendations based on your experience?
 
"...am regularly getting sub-1" groups..." Rule Number 1. If it works, don't fix it.
"...shooting similar groups out to 250 yds..." That'd be sub 2.5" groups. It shoot like that now? If so, Rule Number 1.
"...with respect to dies..." They make no difference. Special dies are to separate you from your money.
"...and crowned..." Your rifle was crowned in the factory.
 
Dynamic1, since you're fairly new here, say "hello" to our resident jackass. Ol' Sunray loves to pop his head in everywhere and spew unquantifiable sh!t. Master of the obvious and king of ignorance. There must be some prize for post count that I'm unaware of...

I used to think that straight line type seater dies couldn't possibly make that much difference until I actually got one. Always thought Hornady had a good idea with the sleeve in their dies (still do, really) and that all the runout comes from the sizing die and its set up (still think that for the most part). But there is no denying that the Redding competition die I have now for my .260 helps to produce the straightest ammunition I've ever turned out. Bushing dies help a lot as well, as you can get different sized bushings to meet your neck tension (by size) needs. Annealing is another thing that many have said will help to ensure more consistent tension due to hardness or maleability of the brass. I can't speak accurately to that because I don't anneal but I can feel some differences in neck sizing and bullet seating effort lately and this will certainly play into consistent tension and bullet positioning.

Now, whether or not this will all help you out with a factory rifle and possibly poorer quality brass is only a guess for me. I think it would help some. If you're using domestic brass, you would likely have to neck turn to get the most from a concentricity and tension perspective. Would it show a difference with a factory chamber? Marginally, I would say but I can't say for sure.

It sounds like your rifle is shooting pretty good as is. Honestly, I would invest in a good bedding job and some quality brass first, then go from there. Good luck bud!

Rooster
 
Well let's start with an easy possibility. Check to see how your bullets fit the seating plug in your die. If they are seating off the ogive or close to it then its no concern but if it is seating farther up the nose of the bullet then you will never get OAL identical from round to round. Bullets will vary in length from base to tip, even good match bullets. Another possibility is inconsistent neck tension. Work hardened necks, especially if they haven't been turned, can lead to inconsistent neck tension after sizing. Its a common problem that pops up with brass that's been reloaded a bunch of times and annealing/neck turning will fix it. Another issue I've had with my Lee Challenger press is if I don't set the dies up to contact the shellholder (can't be done with crimping dies) then I'll get very random seating depths because the stops in the linkage don't top the press out solidly. The pressure I apply affects seating depth by as much as .015". Setting it up so the shellholder makes firm contact with the seating die gives me OAL's no more than .0005" from my target OAL. Measured off the ogive of course. I use a Forster BR die for seating and love it.
 
Pull your seater apart and check that the cup is meeting the Ogive on your bullets and not contacting the nose. I've read guys will hollow it out more to keep it from contacting the nose.

For me with a factory Ruger and accuracy it just likes some bullets and powders better than others. I've burnt up over 100partitions to get an MOA load experimenting with 2 powders. It hated Accubonds 3" groups. I've had several 3/4" groups with partitions. Then I tried some Hornadys and just checking for pressure one round at each increment 1/2 gr more each I had 5shots under an inch and the 3biggest charges (still all different) went under .4". I think I've found my accuracy bullet can't wait to dial in a load.

Remember to have fun with it, if we weren't obsessed with every tenth we probably wouldn't be reloaders.

Willy
 
sunray said:
"...with respect to dies..." They make no difference. Special dies are to separate you from your money.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because a die that seats off the tip and one that seats off the ogive are totally the same thing.
Or a bushing neck die specifically chosen based on your bullets and neck thickness will produce the same results as Ye Old Generic Neck sizer.

:rolleyes:
 
Yeah they must sell for some other reason. I have single dies worth more than entire Lee die sets because they are that much better for my needs. You can load better than average factory ammo on Lee dies. You can load pretty good precision reloads on Lee dies. But when you want to squeeze serious accuracy out of your rifle, the more expensive brands have options that blow Lee out of the water. I guess I'm just a fool for buying expensive things :rolleyes:

Alpheus said:
Yeah, because a die that seats off the tip and one that seats off the ogive are totally the same thing.
Or a bushing neck die specifically chosen based on your bullets and neck thickness will produce the same results as Ye Old Generic Neck sizer.

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
Sunray has more knowledge of shooting and reloading, than a great number of the writers on here who take such a delight in trashing him.
On top of that, he posts common sense, a commodity greatly lacking in much of what the CGN crowd posts.
The common sense posted here by Sunray, is that a new shooter with a run of the mill factory sporting rifle, will never be able to prove that the most expensive dies out there, will improve his shooting.
 
Maybe its the way he comes across as your assessment varies greatly from how I read his post. Several of his comments are the opposite of my own experiences and only stand to derail the op's goals. There's no doubt he is knowledgeable but a lot of his posts sure come across as ridiculous. At least to me.

H4831 said:
Sunray has more knowledge of shooting and reloading, than a great number of the writers on here who take such a delight in trashing him.
On top of that, he posts common sense, a commodity greatly lacking in much of what the CGN crowd posts.
The common sense posted here by Sunray, is that a new shooter with a run of the mill factory sporting rifle, will never be able to prove that the most expensive dies out there, will improve his shooting.
Click to expand...
 
supernova said:
Maybe its the way he comes across as your assessment varies greatly from how I read his post. Several of his comments are the opposite of my own experiences and only stand to derail the op's goals. There's no doubt he is knowledgeable but a lot of his posts sure come across as ridiculous. At least to me.
Click to expand...

I'll stick with my assessment.
 
I was getting somewhat similar results but the problem for me was more obvious. My seating plug was contacting the bullet tips and causing a very slight deformation depending on the speed with which I seated the bullets. RCBS can polish up a set of drilled out seating plugs as mine were causing problems for the Berger vld's and Amax's.

I still get a very slight variation based on the speed I use to seat the bullet though very minor so I can live with it. If I were competing then I'd try to squeeze out every advantage so I'd try the competition dies. You may even try a bullet comparator body and insert to make sure your measurements are bang on as measuring off the tip is not very accurate.

My trigger swap to a Rifle Basix trigger made the biggest change in shrinking already great groups and the next change I may make will be bedding the action but I'm doing .3 to .5 inch groups at a hundred so I'm probably going to leave well enough alone in the event my groups go the other way :)

Redding Competition Seating Dies deliver the precision and accuracy preferred by the most discriminating handloaders. Now you can easily covert your conventional seating die to a precision micrometer seating die for use with VLD bullets for precise, repeatable bullet seating depths to within 1/1000th of an inch and potential world-record accuracy. Designed for all seating dies that use a seat plug with ½-20 threads. Easily changes from one die to another, just match the number on your current seating plug to the corresponding bullet seating micrometer number.
 
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H4831 said:
Sunray has more knowledge of shooting and reloading, than a great number of the writers on here who take such a delight in trashing him.
On top of that, he posts common sense, a commodity greatly lacking in much of what the CGN crowd posts.
The common sense posted here by Sunray, is that a new shooter with a run of the mill factory sporting rifle, will never be able to prove that the most expensive dies out there, will improve his shooting.
Click to expand...

Sheesh Bruce, please don't encourage Sunray...he frequently doesn't have an inkling, and it takes a thousand inklings to make a clue.
He often posts stuff that is downright dangerous, if not just false.
Occasionally, he does hit the nail on the head, but not often enough for me to pay any attention to him. :)
Regards, Dave.
 
Dynamic1 said:
I am regularly getting sub-1" groups with my Ruger M77 in .223 (whichbis, incidentally, a SWEET rifle).

I have done my load testing and have a number of very satisfactory loads. Testing seating depth has proven difficult. I have RCBS FS dies and a Lee Neck Sizing die, which have been working well, however, I am having difficulty getting consistent bullet seating depth, as measured with a comparator. When I set my die and edge it down to get the OAL I want, I want the next round to be IDENTICAL. I can't, currently, get that consistency.

I am wanting to move to the next level and start shooting similar groups out to 250 yds (the limit of the range). I have been going through the various threads here (and on other sites), reading threads on Neck Tension, Seating Depth, Concentricity, etc. with great interest.

I think the next step is with respect to dies. What are the Pros / Cons of moving to an Arbour Press (with Wilson dies) vs Competition (Redding, for example) dies? An expected outcome of moving to (a) different die(s) to address Seating Depth would be more consistent neck tension.

It is a factory rifle and hasn't even been glass bedded yet! So, I am thinking I will have it glass bedded and crowned (if necessay) first while pondering the route to go re: dies. Thoughts? Recommendations based on your experience?
Click to expand...

Very common situation and here is my list of recommendations:

Bedding, no use going forward until this is done PROPERLY!!!
Trigger - to a point, lighter is better
Rests, ensure that you are stable, consistent and repeatable.. Put up lots of wind flags.

for loading the 223, the biggest gain you can make is in a better scale. If you are using something from a reloading company, not good enough. For the best 223 ammo, you will need to hold under 0.1gr. Digital gemscale of some quality.

For dies, I use Lee collet neck die, Redding body die and Forster BR seater. A seater really really matters when using long pointy bullets.

Annealing - if you shoot your brass more then 3 times, you will need to anneal to maintain consistent neck tension. Trimming and outside neck turning is important as your cases change with each firing.

Primers, CCI 450 -What bullet and powder?

Brass - Win works wonders and what I use.

Optics, you can't hit what you can't see. high mag with good resolution is important.

now with all the above, accept that your rifle is only going to shoot so well. What will happen with all these many steps is consistency. Sub MOA for each and every shot is super fun the further you go. Could your rifle shoot 1" groups at 250ys... maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath even with all the best prep and loading. Factory barrels are only so good but given the rifle every chance is important.

You are asking for performance that top tier F TR rifles try and achieve ..... Remember, I am not talking 1 super duper group but an average of ALL groups.... not easy.

I have several loading articles on my Website in the Tech section that you will enjoy. Yes, I have shot ALOT of 223 in all sorts of configuration LR and in competition. Very accurate, need better tools and attention to detail.

Start with the bedding, trigger, optics and scale with seating die.

Enjoy...
Jerry
 
H4831 said:
Sunray has more knowledge of shooting and reloading, than a great number of the writers on here who take such a delight in trashing him.
On top of that, he posts common sense, a commodity greatly lacking in much of what the CGN crowd posts.
The common sense posted here by Sunray, is that a new shooter with a run of the mill factory sporting rifle, will never be able to prove that the most expensive dies out there, will improve his shooting.
Click to expand...

H4831, He may have knowledge but his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. His posts can be cryptic enough to cancel out any good intel he was trying to provide. This much anyone can see.
 
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