Decisions Decisions

Let me put in a word for getting a .308, in preference to just about anything else.

- there'll always be a useful place in a rifleman's collection for a good .308.

- no matter how "rich" you currently are in money and motivation (and that's fantastic), the one thing you are poor in and absolutely cannot afford to waste is TIME. A great virtue of a .308W target rifle is that you can buy your way into a reliably-good-shooting package with virtual certainly. Any of the many good rifles avaialble today and any of the expensive-but-good commercial match ammo will almost certainly shoot well enough that *you* will be the limiting factor in any match or practice not your gear (and this is precisely what you need and want, and is *worth* paying to achieve).

- the higher performance cartridges have a good chance of not shooting superbly for you out of the gate. This is fixable but it takes time and experience to work through.

- when you start, you are learning *everything* - how to load or buy good ammo. How to mount a scope, how to adjust it, how to keep records. How to set up your rifle and gear, either on the bench for testing or prone on the ground for a match. How to reposition yourself after each shot. What wind indicators and mirage looks like. How a trigger break feels. What a good sight picture and what a bad sight picture looks like. How to call your shot when it breaks. How to plot or otherwise centre groups. How aggressive to be and how passive to be, in response to the location of your bullet, observed wind changes, etc. A workhorse .308W will do you more favours than a thoroughbred 6.5-.284.

BTW every time I hear someone suggest that a new shooter start with a .22 it really turns me off in sympathy to the person receiving the advice. It may well be true that shooting a .22 is cheap and everything you learn from shooting a .22 will help you with a centrefire target rifle at long range (I agree with those statements). *BUT* when this advice is given to someone who has shown a clear interest and motivation in shooting a .223 a .308 or a .338, I think it is counterproductive. I think new shooters should be fully informed of all the possible ways they can learn to shoot but there is a great deal of appeal to starting to shoot a highpower rifle rather than a .22. Even if it might be more economical, whether in the sense of money or net training time, to take the rimfire->highpower route, I think that if a shooter really wants to start shooting a centrefire rifle or pistol then that's how they should start out. And they should shoot a .22 rimfire if and as it appeals to them.

If someone tells me, an experienced shooter, that practicing XYZ with a .22 rimfire would help my ABC problem, *that* is useful advice that I will happily accept and benefit from. But I know that as a younger, inexperienced and to be honest very impatient shooter, such advice would be counterproductive - the wisest advice to a younger me would be "OK, to work on your .308W flinching problem, here's an exercise we'll do with your .308W to help show you it and help you fix it".
 
Since we are stabbing in the dark with generalist questions, the advice will not be focused. The one thing the OP indicated was that he had no firm direction AND no parts. He also doesn't have much experience with precision shooting.

Given the state of the market, any quality gear is going to take alot of time to get. Sure he can buy something off the EE or factory rifle or maybe luck out that an assortment of items can be pieced together from several suppliers. When all the parts are organised, how long before he actually sees a rifle on his kitchen table?

As I said earlier, I am already prepping for 2014 and concerned some stuff may not get here in time AND I know what I want and how to get it. When will the OP make a decision and move on a rig?

So We are guessing on direction, desire, physical build, interest, commitment, etc. We really don't have a clue where this will end up.

The one sure thing that ALL new shooters need is trigger time AND time learning to read the mirage/wind. This never ends and the more time spent doing this, the better the results will be on their centerfire rifle when they get it. I stand firm on this because it will always pay dividends.

Sure, there is some learning on recoil and loading BUT that would happen no matter what - they are newbies and have no knowledge. A rimfire with the right ammo focues only on the skill of shooting, all the other variables are taken care of. And despite their extremely low recoil, rimfires demand perfect follow through or you are going to push that bullet way off course. I find my light weight Savage trainer one of my toughest rifles to shoot to peak consistency

Also, recoil is not something all can overcome. Poor position and getting your teeth and cheek smacked is not going to help their learning curve one bit. What support will this newbie have when that first day with Kaboom comes?

I train as I compete. I strongly believe in this. I will push a ton of 308 bullets down range to learn all that I can BUT I have the skill to work through the issues of recoil - what point of reference would a newbie have?

Would they be willing to launch dollar bills and get beat up while they try and figure out a variety of issues? A Flinch is a very difficult thing to get rid of but sure easy to develop.

So if I am to race 800hp cars, I better do all my laps taming that beast. BUT would you ask someone to learn how to drive with something that demanding?

I see being good at precision shooting as a series of steps each adding a piece to the overall puzzle. Each step has to be achieveable but push the limits a bit so they build, grow and improve. That achievement has to account for both monetary and physical demands. Some will develop fast and far, others not so much.

We take different roads to the same goal.

To the OP and other newbies, whichever route you choose, the one thing that will always matter is trigger time. If you can't afford or tolerate shooting your bestest rig, it serves little to improve your skills to make you competitive.

If you just want to show off a big fancy fast car, enjoy. If you actually want to learn how to drive it well, there better be a few stacks of worn tires in the background.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Well, after some chats over PM, I've settled on;

Rem 700p in .308 w/ 26" Barrel
w/ AI AX S/A 1.5 Chassis in FDE since its a little lighter than the aics and with the side cutout since I'm prone all day long will help a bit
AI 20moa S/A rail
Badger Ordinance 34mm rings
S&B 12-50 SFP P4LF with either 1/4cm clicks (preferred) or 1/8 moa clicks depending on availability, going to check on Monday when purchaser gets back in if the 1/4cm will be able to arrive within the month otherwise 1/8moa it is.
Atlas Bipod

Reasoning in Order of Importance:

#1 Risk Management - If I happen to dislike the sport after I get into it, the 700p and AX chassis will be relatively easy to move at minimal loss. S&B will take a long time but I will still get most of my money out of it. If i rock the .308 and decide damn this is not what I want, again 700p easy to move and i can replace it with a custom in exactly what I want, still have awesome glass. This combo puts the least of my money on the table.

#2 Depending on the 1/4cm clicks vs 1/8moa I can potentially have this entire setup by the end of next week, just in time for spring melt. Awesome.

#3 Great Combo for doing both precision matches and F/TR, 12x may be a bit high for 100yd but liveable for sure, much more so than doing 21x @ 1000yd

#4 Need the longer barrel, coming back again to the difference between being able to play and being competitive.

#5 Adjustability will do the best job of fitting me, and be solid at the same time, pistol grip avoids the potential issue of not fitting the thumbhole (got big hands)

#6 Not getting a custom that I may seriously change within a couple years losing half off the price when I'd sell it means the leftover money I can dump into a scope, S&B.. Sweet.

Again let me know what you think of the new build. Thanks for steering me away, I see (at least some of) the errors in my ways.

Only thoughts are, may have some issues with stability on the 1 in 12, BUT it will do for now, can spin up a new barrel later!
 
Dude, you re proposing to spend a small fortune on a new rig but have little to no experience. As far as I can tell you have not even defined what your intended use is. your proposed gun will be a jack of all trades, good at everything but excelling at none.

Have you even handled an AI stock? I have an AI and love it but those stocks are either lov'em or hat'em. Which side of the fence will you come down on? Find some precision shooters at a local range and fondle their equipment. Find out what fits and feels right as well as what does not before you buy.

Unless you have some very deep pockets you are throwing away money. You will be far better served with spending your pile of money on properly hand loaded ammo tuned to your gun and getting trigger time.

While I can appreciate your desire to have a top of the line set up out of the gate, I've been there done that. I ended up spending an even bigger pile of $ once I figured out my intended use (F-class) and discovered to my dismay that the gun I bought was not really suited for it so I had to buy a second rifle and the first one sees next to no use anymore.

Do you plan to compete? Better find out if the gun fits within the rules. If you have any interest at all in shooting F-Class you better find out and add up the weight of all your components to see if the total weight comes in under 18.25 lbs. I seriously doubt your rifle as described will make weight. Same applies to any other discipline. Make sure if you want to use it, it meets all the rule requirements.

One final comment. Yo intend to spend all this money on high end components but not upgrade to a match quality barrel or replace the trigger with a good match trigger? Your performance is going to be limited by two factors, your skill and the capabilities of your barrel. The scope and stock may be high end and have a huge look cool factor but no matter what they will not make that barrel shoot any better. There is no way you are going to achieve exceptional accuracy with a standard factory grade Rem barrel or a gritty factory trigger with a 5 lb pull. If you insist on spending a big pile of money, go the extra distance and have a match grade barrel chambered and put on by a reputable gunsmith and replace the factory trigger with a Jewell or other match grade trigger.
 
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OP - Personally I love parts of your choice and please understand I am NOT telling you what to buy or not buy but I will throw out some things to think on:

1. I love the AICS stock - had a 1.5 and two 2.0's and still own one 2.0 - and am a huge fan of AI stuff but I really hate the AX. Why ? Because it doesn't fit me - I am sure it is a fabulous system for many but for me it simply doesn't work. Believe me I spent a lot of time at SHOT playing with AI stuff and trying to get past my AX dislike but eventually realized that I could never own an AX as I couldn't make it work for me.

2. Your scope choice is excellent. I own two S+B 12-50x56 scopes and think they are the absolute best. Both are SFP and have the P4F reticle and I have one with 1/4 MOA clicks on my PGW Coyote and one with 1/8th MOA clicks on my Barnard 6mmBR - two different rifles with two different purposes ergo two different scopes. BUT the same scope with 1/4 CM adjustments would not work for me - why ? Because I can only think in MOA. So, my question to you is this: before dropping $3K consider if you are a metric or MOA thinker. Otherwise, as said an excellent glass choice. If you buy 1/8th MOA and hate it PM me and I will likely buy it from you.

3. Rings and bases and bipod - no problem; good choices

4. Rifle - I like the 700P but a personal preference would have been a R5 with a 24" tube and 1:11.25 rifling rather than the 1:12 on the 700P. Small point and others would take an opposing view I am sure.

This will likely be a very good tactical rifle but probably won't make weight for F/TR and will be limited, in any event, by factory barrel if you play that game. Still, barrels are consumables and a nice Kreiger will cost about $550 or so down the road.

Invest in nice reloading gear and have lots of fun. Remember if you hate the S+B give me a shout :)
 
not to be a kill joy cause as I said, build what you like and come on out.

Some thoughts to consider....

A mrad scope doesn't scale to any target you will meet in F class. Sure hope you are great at math and fast. Alot of carry the "1" me thinks.

I hope you plan on buying a spotting scope cause the S&B is amazing glass and you will need help to see the air.

As good as a Rem may be on the internet, that factory barrel is going to be a huge let down when you are scored at distance.

Again, hope you fit that stock. You have some seriously experienced shooters posting here that have dumped more stuff then you have seen.

What you are proposing is like way back when solo2 racing took up much of my time. big engined fancy sport cars would show up only to get eaten by Nippon and VW's mobiles costing about as much as their left door.

A heap of money all spent in the wrong places.

I think you will likely have better success with a rebarreled Savage BVSS and RB2 trigger with a proper scaled Sightron. But this is your project. Have fun with it, learn to reload, accept what your rig will and will not do.

You can always change parts as you gain some traction in the sport you end up pursuing - read the rules. Just don't get too discouraged with any match you show up with. We really are nice guys and after the friendly taunting is done, you will get some great advice, maybe shoot some competitive rigs and that will really help you understand what we have been yapping about all these many posts.

If you want to play in the precision sport, a whole lot of stuff isn't going to help you. As you gain range time, you will learn what matters and you will make better decisions.

But that is what experience and trigger time does.

Leather heated seats made from well loved cows will certainly make the ride home more comfy but you are unlikely to bring home any plastic...

YMMV

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
...I hope you plan on buying a spotting scope cause the S&B is amazing glass and you will need help to see the air.

As good as a Rem may be on the internet, that factory barrel is going to be a huge let down when you are scored at distance....
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Explain the spotting scope and S&B. Huh?

Agreed. Screw on a custom barrel. You're building a top fuel dragster with a factory engine.
It'll look cool, but wont go anywhere.

To OP:
12X is not high for 100yds. I use up to 45X at that distance and more if I had it.
 
Well, I'd better make weight otherwise I'll have to get creative with weight reduction, thats why I went with the AX and non-folder its about .8lbs lighter than a AICS 2.0 folder. I'm not worried about the metric scope, the P4F is a metric reticle anyways, may as well get metric clicks, not to mention I grew up using metric anyways, imperial doesn't make sense to me.

I totally agree on replacing the trigger and barrel, but that can be done later when it becomes more apparent that I need it, for now this will get me out shooting and seeing what I'm shooting.

Yes the AX could be a waste of money if I'm the minority that doesn't fit the stock, but I'm gonna roll the dice and say that I will. Worst case, sell it, get a new stock, lose a few hundred bucks.

At this point I'm pretty happy with my current setup, so I'm going to run with that unless something major comes up. The scope is perfection, the rifle not so much, but its still better than my wind calls. When my wind calls get better, i'll get a better barrel and trigger anyways.

Anywho, it's late, Thanks again for everyones help

Cheers,

Andrew
 
Mystic Precision said:
Mirage is near invisible with the S&B. Great for seeing the target, not so much for seeing the air.

Spotter is focused to see the mirage.

Same "issue" with March
Jerry
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Never used any of these scopes so can't comment, but this seems odd that you cannot see mirage or boils with these scopes.

To blacktemplar07,
Seems you've decided on where you want to go with it. Where you start is never where you end up. We all get preconceived ideas, then learn what actually works later. It's all a learning curve and part of the fun. You'll find that there are other engineers, doctors, professors, machinists, etc who shoot these rifles and love to invent things. I'm still learning.
 
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With the P4F, get mil dials. Which, incidentally, are not "metric" per say, any more than degrees are imperial and radians are metric. With mil dials, it's ten clicks between mil hashes. Makes sighting-in a two shot affair so long as the first is on paper, or a follow up shot very accurate. Just measure divergence using the reticle, click over and up/ down appropriately, and bang, X.

At the end of the day here, it won't matter what you buy initially. In a year you will have developed your own opinions of what is 'good' and what is not, and know better what builds confidence in your own performance. There is no substitute for experience.
 
lejarretnoir said:
Never used any of these scopes so can't comment, but this seems odd that you cannot see mirage or boils with these scopes.

.
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This is what got all those SR BR shooters so excited when MARCH first hit the scene. The coating/glass allow the shooter to see through mirage reducing the target bouncing and distortion even at high mag. A slighty higher res lense and suddenly you can chase bullets even as far as 600yds. There are plenty of flags and wind indicators, mirage is not needed to judge conditions. At least, not critical.

S&B has always had superb glass and approach the "view" in a different way. I very much like what I see through their scopes - colour, focus, resolution - it all just works very nicely for my eyes. BUT again, their application is about seeing and ID'ing targets. Any distortion caused by the air can lead to serious mission failures. As the gear is usually used in Teams, the spotter can be used to provide other needed info for the firing solution.

The most recent S&B I viewed was after a nice rain in Chilliwack on a warm summer day. The humidity that rose off the range was like a sauna - yes, my glasses would get fogged now and then. You could see the mirage with the naked eye and certainly "clear" and bold through my Sightron and spotter we were using. Arguably, too much info as the target was seriously distorted.

To say it was easy to see what the air was doing was a big understatement.

When I switched to the S&B, the mirage DISSAPPEARED. I do mean GONE!!!!. Even against long hot objects like the bunkers, target stands - almost zero info and we dialed around alot cause it was so stunning. Looked through the other glass - oh yeah, hard to see through the murk. Through the S&B, almost read the target lettering.

So when shooting this rifle I scored horridly cause I was flying pretty much blind - Chilliwack flags suck at the best of times and all the flags were soaking wet.

In f class, there is now 2 schools of optics - Sightrons where 1 unit does the job of aiming and mirage viewing (dial the side focus and you can track the mirage over the entire range) or use a S&B/MARCH with spotter. Set the spotter to see the mirage, the scope to give precise aim.

As most know, I shoot with the Sightron so use it for double duty. It has served me very well and actually given me an edge when other optics couldn't pick up the air early in the morning when mirage was light (one of the toughest times to shoot is morning when the air is just heating up and there is the largest difference between ground and air)

When in Raton last Sept, I got a chance to talk to one of the Aussie team higher ups. We chatted about scopes and this very thing. The Aussie team shooters all use MARCH - no ifs ands or butts. Their wind coaches use an array of spotters. The shooter only has to aim and break that shot exactly where asked. They don't look at the air, flags or wind cues - just the target. It worked very nicely for them.

when this gent shoots individually, he shoots with Sightron. He can't be bothered packing a spotter.

Again, not a question of good or bad. Just what style and strategy you need to score well. At Raton, I was glad that I had my Sightron cause winds shift there worst then a hyper active dog wagging its tail. I would adjust as I broke my shot to try and keep up with the gusts.

moving from a spotter back to the rifle takes some time. If you can't see any changes through your scope, you may be shooting into what was, not what is and if you have a light bullet, you are going to bleed points eventually. I was squadded with one of the best palma shooters anywhere, she got caught on a few shots for this very reason. I saw the change, she didn't, WTF. Dont worry, she still kicked my A$$.

NOTE: the above has nothing to do with the clarity and resolution of the glass. in 'clean" air, sightron and march are almost identical in clarity and resolution (yes, you are reading this right) at the same mag. But when mirage starts, the sightron will see this way earlier distorting the target image - most perceive this as a negative.

March will see through it until it is super heavy or at super high mags which we typically don't need/use. So the perception is that the glass is better because you can see a clearer target image over a wide range of ambient air. The glass IS a bit better but that is not why it is "better". Without support optics, it can actually be worst under some conditions and uses.

Again, it is about understanding the tool and using it to your best benefit. In F class, mirage and seeing the air is so very important cause the range flags are usually few, big and slow. The 2 schools of thought will continue forward with no clear winner. Just depends on how you want to read the condition and the amount of gear you want to pack.

For this season, I am going to add a twist to my optics. If it works, it will attack this problem from a completely different direction. Just got to wait for that snow to melt.

Jerry
 
Since mirage is variations in air density and refractivity made visiible by the wind blowing in the column of air between the scope and the target, no fixed lens, no matter the quality or coating will reduce its appearance.

NormB
 
Jerry,
You obviously don't know Norm, but I've been shooting F-Class since 1990 and NormB was around at that time too. I dropped out for a decade, but Norm has been shooting F-Class since then to present and Benchrest also.
IMO, he has done more experimentation in different cartridges than anyone else I know. When it comes to F-Open I think of Norm.

I need to use that statement in my sig line please! :)

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Originally Posted by Mystic Precision
NormB, visit an F class match sometime.
 
NormB, your experience in the sport has been indicated to me so my comment would seem rather silly.

Making that previous comment even more surprising. I am sure you have seen many many optics over the years so would have first hand experience on the evolution of coatings and lenses.

We do not disagree that the air is what it is, but I am sure you have used optics that were better at "seeing it"?

Love to hear your thoughts on various brands and how they best served you....

Jerry
 
Norm doesn't need to read the wind he shoots a 7mm boo boo.

To the ops listen to FTR shooter he has given some good advise on shooting precision matches. GET A BRAKE. do you normally need one no but we are not talking normally... a brake allows you two key features staying on target and seeing your hits. The rapid follow ups at 300 and seeing your point of impact at 400 movers is critical, all the other distances the brake is useful but not as important as the two listed stages.

Trevor
 
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