That's becouse your doing to wrong
decocking method?
- Thread starter dm9
- Start date
That's becouse your doing to wrong
Who picks their nose with their arms? Mommy Always told me picking your nose was gross.
Take Care
Bob
I've seen people DQ both ways! I show people both methods but I'm one of the oddies that prefers the pinch method. Pick a method, make it yours, decock carefully and keep an eye out for greasy hammer/back of the slide....I keep a Kleenex in my back pocket for after the first stage or two.
Your horse isn't going to bolt shooting IPSC...so use both hands.
Your horse isn't going to bolt shooting IPSC...so use both hands.
What? a) it's you're b) how would I be RO'ing if I'm the one dropping the hammer?
punching kicking headbuting are gross motor skills. Pressing the trigger, pressing the mag catch, gripping the gun, pressing the slide release, grabbing the slide instead, all fine motor skills. Anyone that says any different quite simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Just because Tac Res says it doesn't make it true
Slavex you saying they are different and implying one action is more difficult than another doesn't make it true either. Fine and gross motor skills are developed early in life. While the definition of such involves the large muscles ie gross and the small muscles ie fine it doesn't follow as some suggest, that one set is more difficult to use than another. In your examples you give, both gross and fine motor skills are involved in pulling the slide back, hitting the mag release, gripping the gun etc. It just seems fashionable for some to make it sound like the use of one set of muscles is more difficult to do than another. By the time most of us are 12 both have been pretty much mastered.
Why they seem so important to go on about when it comes to shooting is beyond me. When learning to golf and later teaching golf I don't ever recall referring to the use of fine motor skills or gross motor skills as something to drone on about yet over the past 20 years some shooting instructors are fascinated by the terms. They somehow imply referencing the two terms legitimizes there expertise. You for example are the first I have heard to imply pulling the slide back with your hands is a fine motor skill. I have heard others go on about how pushing the slide release is a fine motor skill while using the overhand method to release the slide is a gross motor skill, hence use one method over another. The truth is a shooter use both large and small muscles to accomplish the feat in both actions. Neither are particularly hard to do, practice will get you doing it the same way each time but they are no more difficult to do then picking up a cup of coffee. The latter may be difficult to do for a pre-school child but not so much for an adult.
With the advent of texting using cell phones I would think any discussion regarding the use of small muscles should be moot. To become an effective boxer it takes hours and hours of practice to master the art of the punch just like pulling the trigger takes hours of practice to do it the same way in the most effective way to maximize accuracy but both the boxer and the shooter are using both muscle groups to accomplish the intended action. It is not the size of the muscles that are the problem. it is the action itself. Both the above examples are not difficult to do. but to do them the same way every time just takes practice. From my experience golfing not many are prepared to do the repetitive practice required to become very good. Their ability to become reasonably good is, for the most always there, the desire or circumstance for the most part, is not. So to shooting.
Take Care
Bob
ps Both muscle groups are involved in lowering the hammer of a gun. One method virtually eliminates the possibility of an AD while the other involves Darwin's law of Natural Selection.
Why they seem so important to go on about when it comes to shooting is beyond me. When learning to golf and later teaching golf I don't ever recall referring to the use of fine motor skills or gross motor skills as something to drone on about yet over the past 20 years some shooting instructors are fascinated by the terms. They somehow imply referencing the two terms legitimizes there expertise. You for example are the first I have heard to imply pulling the slide back with your hands is a fine motor skill. I have heard others go on about how pushing the slide release is a fine motor skill while using the overhand method to release the slide is a gross motor skill, hence use one method over another. The truth is a shooter use both large and small muscles to accomplish the feat in both actions. Neither are particularly hard to do, practice will get you doing it the same way each time but they are no more difficult to do then picking up a cup of coffee. The latter may be difficult to do for a pre-school child but not so much for an adult.
With the advent of texting using cell phones I would think any discussion regarding the use of small muscles should be moot. To become an effective boxer it takes hours and hours of practice to master the art of the punch just like pulling the trigger takes hours of practice to do it the same way in the most effective way to maximize accuracy but both the boxer and the shooter are using both muscle groups to accomplish the intended action. It is not the size of the muscles that are the problem. it is the action itself. Both the above examples are not difficult to do. but to do them the same way every time just takes practice. From my experience golfing not many are prepared to do the repetitive practice required to become very good. Their ability to become reasonably good is, for the most always there, the desire or circumstance for the most part, is not. So to shooting.
Take Care
Bob
ps Both muscle groups are involved in lowering the hammer of a gun. One method virtually eliminates the possibility of an AD while the other involves Darwin's law of Natural Selection.
There was a good discussion years ago on Pistol Forum about the whole fine vs gross motor skill thing. The terms as you state come from early childhood development and are meant to help educators in the teaching of skills to children, it was, as I had it explained to me during numerous shooting courses, and a course on adult learning that I did, never really meant to transfer to adult learning, as we learn skills differently than children. But a certain gun company that made a very popular gun with a really hard to hit and depress slide lock/release *cough Glock* decided to tell people that hitting the slide stop was a fine motor skill and that during the stress of shooting you wouldn't be able to hit their crappy little lever. instead you should rely on the improperly termed "gross motor skill" and grasp the slide and rack it. That grasping is also a fine motor skill, not a gross motor skill, and that is of course completely ignoring all the fine motor skill things you have to do when shooting, holding the gun, pressing the trigger, hitting the mag release, grabbing a mag and the big one, inserting the mag, the hardest of all the skills and one that in children is shown when kids are trying to fit odd shaped items through odd shaped holes. So, being able to successfully do all those things and yet you can't hit the slide release? And yes, this is a topic covered by numerous top flight instructors from the USA including Ernest Langdon (who was around and involved in teaching at incredibly high levels, when Glock came out with their bullcrap on this topic), Todd Jarrett as well, Todd Green, Southnarc, Robbie Leatham. Vickers just to name a few.
Here is a definition of the skills off the internet, this is the same definition across a number of baby sites, early childhood education sites and so on. Oh did I mention we did a course on this years ago? Yeah did that.
"Fine motor skills are small movements — such as picking up small objects and holding a spoon — that use the small muscles of the fingers, toes, wrists, lips, and tongue. Gross motor skills are the bigger movements — such as rolling over and sitting — that use the large muscles in the arms, legs, torso, and feet."
From Wikipedia
Gross motor skills
Gross motor skill requires the use of large muscle groups to perform tasks like walking, balancing, crawling. The skill required is not extensive and therefore are usually associated with continuous tasks. Much of the development of these skills occurs during early childhood. The performance level of gross motor skill remains unchanged after periods of non-use.
Fine motor skills
Fine motor skill requires the use of smaller muscle groups to perform tasks that are precise in nature. Activities like playing the piano and playing video games are examples of using fine motor skills. Generally, there is a retention loss of fine motor skills over a period of non-use. Discrete tasks usually require more fine motor skill than gross motor skills."
Here is a good video to explain,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Jd3ltvb8k
Here is a definition of the skills off the internet, this is the same definition across a number of baby sites, early childhood education sites and so on. Oh did I mention we did a course on this years ago? Yeah did that.
"Fine motor skills are small movements — such as picking up small objects and holding a spoon — that use the small muscles of the fingers, toes, wrists, lips, and tongue. Gross motor skills are the bigger movements — such as rolling over and sitting — that use the large muscles in the arms, legs, torso, and feet."
From Wikipedia
Gross motor skills
Gross motor skill requires the use of large muscle groups to perform tasks like walking, balancing, crawling. The skill required is not extensive and therefore are usually associated with continuous tasks. Much of the development of these skills occurs during early childhood. The performance level of gross motor skill remains unchanged after periods of non-use.
Fine motor skills
Fine motor skill requires the use of smaller muscle groups to perform tasks that are precise in nature. Activities like playing the piano and playing video games are examples of using fine motor skills. Generally, there is a retention loss of fine motor skills over a period of non-use. Discrete tasks usually require more fine motor skill than gross motor skills."
Here is a good video to explain,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Jd3ltvb8k
So. not being a part of the shooting sports (yet),
Is there something wrong with completely clearing the pistol of all ammunition and performing a controlled dry fire to de-#### the gun? Down range where it is safe as though you were actually going to shoot? That's how we've done it in the training courses I've gone to.
PROVE then click? In a controlled manner in a safe direction?
Don't jump on me since I don't know the rules, Just wondering why that isn't a good 3rd option?
EDIT: Well... PROVE without the E.
Is there something wrong with completely clearing the pistol of all ammunition and performing a controlled dry fire to de-#### the gun? Down range where it is safe as though you were actually going to shoot? That's how we've done it in the training courses I've gone to.
PROVE then click? In a controlled manner in a safe direction?
Don't jump on me since I don't know the rules, Just wondering why that isn't a good 3rd option?
EDIT: Well... PROVE without the E.
Advoc, your suggestion is exactly how we clear guns in IPSC and I think the guys do in IDPA (Canuck44 can answer that better than me), the range commands are "If you are finished Unload and Show Clear" (we take out the mag, rack out the round in the chamber and show the RO the empty chamber, at least you're supposed to) then it's "If Clear, Hammer Down and Holster" so then the slide goes forward and you pull the trigger dropping the hammer. If it goes bang it's not good. As noted above in some Divisions in the sports you have to start hammer down on a loaded chamber and as such we have to decock. Some people really don't like manually decocking and prefer a gun with a decocking lever or safety, but those controls usually make a for a crappier trigger, no matter how you dress it up.
Ah. I didn't think of starting a stage. Figured you guys were talking about the end.
Is half #### legal? I shoot a Hi Power with the mag safety removed. Odd to think of having to #### the hammer after you've already loaded a round. My gun doesn't work that way so well, the safety tends to rotate with the hammer if the slide is stationary. Probably a malfunction, but it's a fixer-upper at the moment.
Is half #### legal? I shoot a Hi Power with the mag safety removed. Odd to think of having to #### the hammer after you've already loaded a round. My gun doesn't work that way so well, the safety tends to rotate with the hammer if the slide is stationary. Probably a malfunction, but it's a fixer-upper at the moment.
Half #### is not legal in IDPA in either SSP or ESP (ESP can be shot hammer back with safety on or fully down at the shooters option). Slavex you might comment on IPSC. Your Hi-Power is a SA gun and would not be legal in IDPA SSP Division. It can be shot in ESP though, as described earlier in this post.
Take Care
Bob
Bob's got it, SA is not legal in Production. Hammer down starts are only for DA guns including striker fired that have decockers like the Walthers, Glocks and Smegmas, er I mean M&Ps you obviously can't decock. So the HiPower would compete in Standard Division or, if you're really feeling the need for abuse, Open..
crazyjackrabbit
CGN Regular
You'd have to shoot in "standard" or "open" with your hi power. Classic is for 1911's with restrictions to what qualifies into classic.
hope it helps
hope it helps
