Deer management does vs bucks

I think it’s a double edged sword, I hunt the okanagon in bc a lot for whitetails my parents live up their, been hunting it for years, I don’t take a doe every year I take usually every second year, I see a lot of whitetail does up their and a lot of dry does, what I don’t see a lot that I used to is muledeer, between logging, the any mule deer buck season that used to be their (now 4 point or better all season) and with whitetails pushing them out it’s taken it’s toll on them.

Population has to be managed and the whitetails up their I’ve noticed have adapted heavily to pressure come hunting season the does are even more weary and stay in the thick stuff over the last few years I’ve bumped into plenty of hunter who just road hunt and most barely see anything and automatically assume the open doe season has slaughtered them.... no they just adapted.I hike or tree stand or ground blind hunt I still see a lot. In my opinion it is good to have a fairly balanced buck to doe ratio if you have an overpopulated amount of does you will have young bucks who are inexperienced pushing the does around before their ready and a lot of the times they will miss getting impregnated the first estrus cycle, does impregnated on the first cycle have the fawns quicker in the spring obviously which makes it more probable for the fawn to survive the winter also the early fawns can be impregnated that same year in December if they come into estrus. I’m not 100 percent myself on board with popping a doe every year but I feel that if we hunt deer we have to manage them, and every second year if I see a nice dry doe I’ll take it. And I always feel bad because I associate a doe with being a mom.

More bucks equals more fawns..... In my experience this isn’t the case I hunt blacktail deer in the lower mainland in bc where you can’t shoot does, over the last 6 years I’ve hunted an area hard every year 40 plus days. See a lot of dry does a lot of spikes and a lot of 2 points, with the odd 3 and 4 point.I would always pass on the small bucks. three years ago I took my 2 friends in their amd said only small bucks and we shot 5 bucks all spikes or small twos, ( your aloud 2 bucks per season down here each) the next year more does with fawns, less spikes and 2’s more mature bucks spotted.Less small bucks running does equals bigger bucks having to move around more in the rut.Now each year between me and my buddy it’s one of us shoots a Mature buck the other takes a small buck.Balance is key in my opinion to many bucks is a problem to many does is a problem it all comes down to us as individuals sure we all have different ideas on how we think areas should be managed every area can be different due to feed and the eco system/ Hunting pressure ect. As hunters we are conservationists and through what we see out their in all our hunting areas each of us should make rational decision on how we manage the area giving the allocation for tags and seasons in that area to keep it sustainable for years to come

In the end I am for whitetail doe season on a conservation stand point in areas that are overpopulated or areas where muledeer are getting pushed out, on a personal stand point it still bothers me dropping a doe
 
The selective harvest system used in Ontario is a classic case study in successful Whitetail Deer management. The system was introduced in the late 1970's after decades of scarce deer population. In fact,after many years of hunting,if a deer was taken by some lucky hunter,it was cause for great celebration because of the rarity of the event. A concept was developed where for many years,only bucks were allowed to be shot. Gradually,the Whitetail population vastly increased where it became necessary to issue separate "antlerless" tags by application free of charge,but,tightly regulated depending on the population level of each WMU. Fast forward 30+ years,the Deer population is very healthy with close estimates between 300K to 500K animals in southern Ontario alone depending,of course,on winter severity and predation by wolves and coyotes. Hunting seasons start on the 1st of October for Archery and run until New Years Eve with a two-week gun hunt during the first two weeks of November.
 
I think it is quite accepted that for the growth of the herd the breeding does are the most important.

Also, the older but fertile does are the ones which help the fawns make it through winter.

One thing to keep in mind is that mortality is not a uniform value for all deer. I also think 10% is very low.

i have talked to some of the local biologists and was told mortality of fawns, especially in a brutal winter like we are having and with the number of predators out there is somewhere 60-90%. Majority of fawns do not make it through their first winter.
That's ok though, because nature kind of accounts for that by producing surplus.

The deer that are really having the most impact are the 3-5 year old, experienced does with multiple fawns.
They are the most important.

David Peterson has written an article entitled "Bambi must die", he makes the case for shooting fawns because the majority of them are nature's surplus.

And I don't want to get into an argument about shooting fawns. That's to each his own.
 
altaberg said:
......David Peterson has written an article entitled "Bambi must die", he makes the case for shooting fawns because the majority of them are nature's surplus.

And I don't want to get into an argument about shooting fawns. That's to each his own.
Click to expand...

That is a good point with merit, but for every fawn thats killed that would have otherwise made it through it's first winter, the population looses an entire deer life span, rather than just a portion of a deer life span as in a deer that will only live a couple more years due to age.
 
Trimmer 905 said:
The selective harvest system used in Ontario is a classic case study in successful Whitetail Deer management. The system was introduced in the late 1970's after decades of scarce deer population. In fact,after many years of hunting,if a deer was taken by some lucky hunter,it was cause for great celebration because of the rarity of the event. A concept was developed where for many years,only bucks were allowed to be shot. Gradually,the Whitetail population vastly increased where it became necessary to issue separate "antlerless" tags by application free of charge,but,tightly regulated depending on the population level of each WMU. Fast forward 30+ years,the Deer population is very healthy with close estimates between 300K to 500K animals in southern Ontario alone depending,of course,on winter severity and predation by wolves and coyotes. Hunting seasons start on the 1st of October for Archery and run until New Years Eve with a two-week gun hunt during the first two weeks of November.
Click to expand...

And yet people who're clueless about management will criticize the MNRF for poor deer herd management. Sorry, but nobody can criticize deer management in Ontario when you look at how successful they've been. I live in the sticks and see deer almost daily while out driving or sitting at the dinner table. I thank the MNRF for that.

"Bucks only" does not apply around here. We need a good harvest of does every season to keep numbers in check.
 
Our Biologist suck I don't know who makes up these stupid Bag limits and regulations but they are lucky I'm not there boss .We waste some much money on these clowns
makes me sick .They open doe seasons and open Female moose and calf tags in areas where you hardly see a track they are the most incompetent people ruining our wildlife system ask 90% of hunters if they think there are more deer ,more moose or more anything everything except wolfs are on the increases. unless you consider the wildlife living in Villages or towns wildlife doing OK in town.Greenwood Midway Rock Creek area the bag limit has wiped out whitetail does no question. On Vancouver island seer population are just getting better and they open youth doe season this is just plain nuts and there doing goofy #### all over the Province theses people making these changes are just screwing up the wildlife system

Just my 2 cents
 
altaberg said:
David Peterson has written an article entitled "Bambi must die", he makes the case for shooting fawns because the majority of them are nature's surplus.

And I don't want to get into an argument about shooting fawns. That's to each his own.
Click to expand...

The MNR used the same logic setting up the moose draw system in Ontario, and it's a complete mess, and overall numbers are declining.

Purple shoulder said:
That is a good point with merit, but for every fawn thats killed that would have otherwise made it through it's first winter, the population looses an entire deer life span, rather than just a portion of a deer life span as in a deer that will only live a couple more years due to age.
Click to expand...

I agree with this^. A fawn may or may not make it through the winter, but it certainly won't survive if you put a bullet in it's ribs.
 
buckhunter78 said:
I think it’s a double edged sword, I hunt the okanagon in bc a lot for whitetails my parents live up their, been hunting it for years, I don’t take a doe every year I take usually every second year, I see a lot of whitetail does up their and a lot of dry does, what I don’t see a lot that I used to is muledeer, between logging, the any mule deer buck season that used to be their (now 4 point or better all season) and with whitetails pushing them out it’s taken it’s toll on them.

Population has to be managed and the whitetails up their I’ve noticed have adapted heavily to pressure come hunting season the does are even more weary and stay in the thick stuff over the last few years I’ve bumped into plenty of hunter who just road hunt and most barely see anything and automatically assume the open doe season has slaughtered them.... no they just adapted.I hike or tree stand or ground blind hunt I still see a lot.
Click to expand...
Well said. A hunter has to adapt with the prey, and I see many that have not/are unwilling who choose to complain instead
 
9.3mauser said:
The MNR used the same logic setting up the moose draw system in Ontario, and it's a complete mess, and overall numbers are declining.
Click to expand...

The moose circus in Ontario is the result of hunters and OFAH crying every time moose tags are reduced and that they "deserve" to at least shoot a calf if the group has spent the time and money heading north to hunt. Some even think they're entitled to shoot a moose simply because it's been their family tradition to go north for moose every year. It's hard for the MNRF to get anything done when so many self centered and uneducated folks rely on emotions rather than facts. These people think any reduction in tags or shortening seasons is somehow an attack on their "right" to shoot a moose, regardless of how poor the population is doing. Look at how low moose numbers are in many areas. MNRF slashed tags and shortened the calf hunt to help the herd and these selfish people are still complaining that the MNRF is clueless in regards to management and cannot understand why tags were reduced.


Funny how people are talking about deer fawns and how important they are for the population, yet these same folks likely have zero issue with moose calves being intentionally targeted.
 
canadian hunter312 said:
The moose circus in Ontario is the result of hunters and OFAH crying every time moose tags are reduced and that they "deserve" to at least shoot a calf if the group has spent the time and money heading north to hunt. Some even think they're entitled to shoot a moose simply because it's been their family tradition to go north for moose every year. It's hard for the MNRF to get anything done when so many self centered and uneducated folks rely on emotions rather than facts. These people think any reduction in tags or shortening seasons is somehow an attack on their "right" to shoot a moose, regardless of how poor the population is doing. Look at how low moose numbers are in many areas. MNRF slashed tags and shortened the calf hunt to help the herd and these selfish people are still complaining that the MNRF is clueless in regards to management and cannot understand why tags were reduced.


Funny how people are talking about deer fawns and how important they are for the population, yet these same folks likely have zero issue with moose calves being intentionally targeted.
Click to expand...

There is so much phoqued up about the moose management program in Ontario. First, all the budget cuts to the MNRF means practically no CO's in the bush, so a lot of firsthand info is no longer being gathered. The aerial surveys are, from what I've heard from some fairly credible people, either not being done or phoqued up. In many areas, significant numbers of moose are being killed by a certain group for re-sale, and has nothing to do with sustenance hunting. Bear numbers have skyrocketed, and bears are the #1 calf predator. An increase in deer ranges probably also affects moose numbers. Unfortunately, no matter who wins the election in just over 3 months, I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.
 
altaberg said:
I think it is quite accepted that for the growth of the herd the breeding does are the most important.

Also, the older but fertile does are the ones which help the fawns make it through winter.

One thing to keep in mind is that mortality is not a uniform value for all deer. I also think 10% is very low.

i have talked to some of the local biologists and was told mortality of fawns, especially in a brutal winter like we are having and with the number of predators out there is somewhere 60-90%. Majority of fawns do not make it through their first winter.
That's ok though, because nature kind of accounts for that by producing surplus.

The deer that are really having the most impact are the 3-5 year old, experienced does with multiple fawns.
They are the most important.

David Peterson has written an article entitled "Bambi must die", he makes the case for shooting fawns because the majority of them are nature's surplus.

And I don't want to get into an argument about shooting fawns. That's to each his own.
Click to expand...

If that's the same David Peterson who was The Premier of Ontario,he's the guy that came up with the widely disseminated quote touted by anti-gunners and I quote "Your right to own guns doesn't supercede the rights of everyone else not to get shot". He needs to just STFU.
 
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